Why is PHX Fleet Service run different than the other Hubs

[Ramp Rogue]

bagchucker,
I am a 30+ year east employee. I have witnessed, through mergers with PSA, Piedmont and US the challenges faced by the union in building solidairity among employees (members) who come from vastly different work cultures. One thing, through the years, has remained a constant. It is paramount we, as a union, bridge the differences that divide us from one culture to another. The company views us as one group. It is critical we unite as such. Going forward, how do you propose, to the candidates running for future DL 141 Officer positions, we proceed to obtain solidarity that is inclusive of our members in PHX, LAS and former America West stations?
I respect and invite your input,
ograc

One way is to finally realize that we have a combination of 4 different airlines merged into 1. With that said, we have 4 different seniority systems that have not been merged into 1. Until that happens and we have a seniority system that treats each employee with the same fairness, we will never have solidarity. And if by chance another merger happens, it's going to be even worse.

Rogue.....

 

[Ramp Rogue]

In PHX, leads can either be "hired-on" permanent leads or lead-qualified agents that can be temporarily upgraded.

Agents that are "upgraded" to Lead for a shift automatically have their pay increased for that shift as well, it shows up in Workbrain as a pay differential for that day. If an agent is upgraded in the middle or end of his shift, he (is supposed to) receive lead pay for the whole shift. Only agents with "quals", or team lead qualifications, can be upgraded or pick up lead shifts. Once you're qualified, the only way to become unqualified is either sign up to have your qualifications dropped with management (which they rarely allow) or get on a level three disciplinary level. I know of a few leads that either have or were considering getting on a level three just to lose their lead qualifications.

Agents that are qualified to be leads and are not "hired-on" dedicated leads may at the beginning of a new bid period sign the "no pull" list which basically puts them towards the bottom of the upgrade list. A lot if not most lead qualified agents sign the no-pull list but in a pinch they'll still upgrade people from it anyway.

This problem used to be more severe until a couple of years ago when PHX was effectively opened for transfers and furloughs to come to be leads, in fact becoming a FT dedicated lead was the only way a lot of those people were able to make it to PHX. Before that time easily half the leads on the ramp for a given shift were upgrades. Even though they had a slew of hired-on lead positions filled since that time, management has never stopped relying on the flexibility that comes with being able to upgrade certain agents at will.

A lead may get an ESON for something amiss at his or her gate, such as the main gear not being chocked, or a missing delineator or what have you since they are responsible for that gate; in fact if they wanted to they could give the whole gate crew ESON's for no one having noticed it or done anything about it. A lead won't and shouldn't receive an ESON when an agent on the crew is neglecting something that that agent is personally responsible for or his doing with his person; for example if Johnny Idiot is hopping between carts and over tongues his lead isn't going to get the ESON for it, Johnny is.

Leads do not issue ESON's in PHX, never have. Hope this clarifies...

What is a hired on lead?

Rogue.....

 

[ChockJockey]

What is a hired on lead?

Rogue.....

This is a person who is a lead and can only bid lead lines and pick up/work lead shifts; their official job title is fleet service lead, while a "lead-qualified agent" is still just an FSA.

Right now in PHX as I understand it, the only way to go full time is to become a full time lead. As of March 5th the "no pull" list is going away for good, and whenever they need to upgrade people for shifts they will do so by seniority. They are giving lead-qualified agents until the 3rd to sign up to drop their team lead qualifications, and I think that many will try, since such an opportunity rarely comes along, and a lot of them are sick of getting pulled to be leads...

 

[Ramp Rogue]

Thats wild. I've worked as a Lead in three cities. (All East) Senority gave me the positions. No Lead class. At one point in GSO they said we Leads had to be OPS qualified but that was the only qualification I ever had to have. That being said how is it as a company we have such different run ramps? The contract talks about temp upgrades but does not address qualifications. Only duties. An AGC would surely help with these issues.

LEAD CLASS? That's just a an idea that someone in hp management had to justify their job. If hp management doesn't come up with a dumb idea on a regular basis, someone might realize that they aren't needed an eliminate their management position. If you want to be a lead, fill out a transfer form and whomever has the most seniority gets the position. DONE DEAL. How can anyone in management tell someone that they are or are not qualified to do a job, when they have never done the job themself so that they can judge someone else? Before you can tell me that I'm qualified or not, you have to walk in my shoes to know what I do. How can management say what is right or wrong if they have never done the job that they are criticizing.

Rogue.....

 

[ograc]

LEAD CLASS? That's just a an idea that someone in hp management had to justify their job. If hp management doesn't come up with a dumb idea on a regular basis, someone might realize that they aren't needed an eliminate their management position. If you want to be a lead, fill out a transfer form and whomever has the most seniority gets the position. DONE DEAL. How can anyone in management tell someone that they are or are not qualified to do a job, when they have never done the job themself so that they can judge someone else? Before you can tell me that I'm qualified or not, you have to walk in my shoes to know what I do. How can management say what is right or wrong if they have never done the job that they are criticizing.

Rogue.....

Rogue,
Absolutely correct. Lead positions are awarded off the system transfer file. The most senior person (provided they are not on a level 2 or higher) with a bid on file is awarded the postion. It is the company's responsibility to provide any required training. Sounds like HP management needs to get their noses in the contract. Gone are the days of favoritism and hand picking. Unless, of course, we choose to allow them to get away with it.

 

[Solidarity]

Word on the street PR in PHX offered AGC

 

[PHX Devil]

We have a lead class because the majority of PHX has no idea how to use saber (whatever that program is called).

It has been a long process trying to get the east way of doing leads, probably hundreds of grievances and still waiting on arbitration that has been postponed numerous times because PHX is not a priority of the current agc's.

Solidarity are you mad you didn't get an agc spot?

 

[Solidarity]

Not mad at all. I feel that PR was only picked for the numbers.

 

[IAM Informer]

Not mad at all. I feel that PR was only picked for the numbers.

and you are absolutely correct. ND or 141 rising or whatever they want to call themselves is all about votes. It has nothing to do with doing there job
as seen in the latest debacle with the BUF and other stations. The one time US needs its infamous leader to stand up and fight he cowers behind a LOA that
gives the guys exactly what they should have gotten had there station remand open until apr as per the contract.

 

[ChockJockey]

We have a lead class because the majority of PHX has no idea how to use saber (whatever that program is called).

Yeah there's really no "lead class" per se, it's DECS (Sabre) training where one learns how to use the program, input numbers, how to do dangerous goods, etc. There's also a small presentation on "lead expectations" and that's basically it. Virtually anyone who wants to get "qualified" can sign up for it, and we've had a few people who have no business being leads becoming qualified very easily. The thing is if you don't do the DECS training, you don't get a Sabre login; if you can't log in to Sabre, you're not qualified as a lead. In PHX only a lead can input the counts on a flight and close it out.

 

[necigrad]

Right now in PHX as I understand it, the only way to go full time is to become a full time lead.

If there's no open positions in the head count that should be correct. If there are vacancies that is unacceptable.

As of March 5th the "no pull" list is going away for good, and whenever they need to upgrade people for shifts they will do so by seniority. They are giving lead-qualified agents until the 3rd to sign up to drop their team lead qualifications, and I think that many will try, since such an opportunity rarely comes along, and a lot of them are sick of getting pulled to be leads...

More BS. We've had this problem in LAS as well. At least back in the AWA days if you didn't want to be a lead you just didn't do recurrent, as long as there was a ramp line open. Since we switched to SABRE, with no recurrent, it's a black hole. Management should be ashamed to abuse employees this way.

LEAD CLASS? That's just a an idea that someone in hp management had to justify their job... ...If you want to be a lead, fill out a transfer form and whomever has the most seniority gets the position.

Not exactly. You've got to remember AWA was a completely different structure. We had lead classes. We NEEDED lead classes because being a lead at AWA had more responsibility. Back in the AWA days (and I'm pretty positive the PSA guys will say the same) we did weight and balance as well. You can't learn that in a 4 hour class. The "lead class" terminology is just a holdover to represent the necessary SABRE training that is performed by agents that work with the Lead title. The second part is correct, with the caveat that it's incumbent on the employee to get the necessary training (it it hasn't already been taken) to accept the position (and don't mistake me, the class could be offered as a response to the position) and on the company to provide the training.

How can anyone in management tell someone that they are or are not qualified to do a job, when they have never done the job themself so that they can judge someone else? Before you can tell me that I'm qualified or not, you have to walk in my shoes to know what I do. How can management say what is right or wrong if they have never done the job that they are criticizing.

Easy. Corporate determines what standards need to be met, management determines if an employee meets those standards. If there's a requirement to attend a class theoretically a janitor can determine if someone is qualified. No experience required. Do A, B, and C and you're qualified. Do A and C and you're not. With no temporary supervisor options (something AWA had) you're less likely to find a ramper willing to go from the ramp to management, forcing off the street hiring. You're not necessarily going to have someone familiar with the work in that position. That's fine, as long as that person is willing to learn. They need to attend the classes, observe employees working, ask questions... It's tough for sure, but there's no reason why it can't be done. Unless of course some ramper decides they haven't done this job thus the can't possibly be qualified to determine if I'm following the rules that are black and white (i.e. beltloader surfing, unsafe driving, loading the bags on the wrong flight...).

 

[Ramp Rogue]

Yeah there's really no "lead class" per se, it's DECS (Sabre) training where one learns how to use the program, input numbers, how to do dangerous goods, etc. There's also a small presentation on "lead expectations" and that's basically it. Virtually anyone who wants to get "qualified" can sign up for it, and we've had a few people who have no business being leads becoming qualified very easily. The thing is if you don't do the DECS training, you don't get a Sabre login; if you can't log in to Sabre, you're not qualified as a lead. In PHX only a lead can input the counts on a flight and close it out.

Every ramp agent should be able to sign into sabre. It's part of the job. The same way they are supposed to be able to sign into ilearning. PERIOD!

Rogue.....

 

[ChockJockey]

Every ramp agent should be able to sign into sabre. It's part of the job. The same way they are supposed to be able to sign into ilearning. PERIOD!

Rogue.....

Well, you can't sign in to Sabre if you don't have a username or password. Even if the agents in PHX could, none of them would know what to do since none of them have been trained on it. I'll check inbound and outbound loads on sabre but if I'm not a lead I'm not going to DRCP/DRCU/DRCF any flight because I'm not the one making the pay differential. There are some leads who if they knew had agents that would pull the load and start loading on their own wouldn't bother to come out to the gate until the flight was ready to push.

When PHX switched over to Sabre they felt it was only necessary to train leads on how to use it; it didn't make sense to make Sabre training mandatory for 800 agents because few would have been interested in learning it and it would have been a huge pain in the back for everybody. Since only leads knew Sabre, it didn't make any sense to train new hires on it, and there was no reason to unless any of them later wanted to become leads.

 

[ChockJockey]

Not exactly. You've got to remember AWA was a completely different structure. We had lead classes. We NEEDED lead classes because being a lead at AWA had more responsibility. Back in the AWA days (and I'm pretty positive the PSA guys will say the same) we did weight and balance as well. You can't learn that in a 4 hour class. The "lead class" terminology is just a holdover to represent the necessary SABRE training that is performed by agents that work with the Lead title. The second part is correct, with the caveat that it's incumbent on the employee to get the necessary training (it it hasn't already been taken) to accept the position (and don't mistake me, the class could be offered as a response to the position) and on the company to provide the training.

Well said. Didn't it used to be that at AWA you needed at least the recommendation of a manager and certain number of years worked before going lead?

 

[ograc]

and you are absolutely correct. ND or 141 rising or whatever they want to call themselves is all about votes. It has nothing to do with doing there job
as seen in the latest debacle with the BUF and other stations. The one time US needs its infamous leader to stand up and fight he cowers behind a LOA that
gives the guys exactly what they should have gotten had there station remand open until apr as per the contract.

ND needs to get votes and they know it! They know there will be accountability for 4 years of cowering and blatant neglectful representation. So now they want to give PHX it's due attention? Please... I hope the members in PHX see through this political move and refuse to be fooled again.