Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Zone5]

seajay-

As it was so eloquintly stated here- We aren't the ones in bankruptcy. AWA wasn't in BK, the old USAirways was. Yet the west has paid at every turn.

Seek your DOH, 65% of the top 50% USAirways pilots??? Would you accept that?? Be honest and show your work.

The only thing I'm "seeking" here is an end to this nightmare and the ability to move forward, granted while doing so at a much improved rate of pay is a plus.

The way I understand the MB SLI process, when it is complete, the need for me to "accept" the results does not exist. My plan at that point will be to move forward and deal with whatever the outcome turns out to be. What might your plan be at that point?


seajay

 

[traderjake]

They both want this deal done.....................................

They'll be knocking on USAPA's door the minute the rejection is tallied.

That's why USAPA had to go to Parker and beg for the first MOU, because they need our cooperation so much.

 

[luvthe9]

The old grade school adage still applies. To all things that smell bad. This one fits the bill....
"He who denied it, supplied it." Munn is definitely all over this one.

They begged Munn to write his denial. He is totally involved. Guaranteed. Here is your chance CLT pilots to get Munn involved in your career!
Read his goofy ideas on giving in to the Nic. He is all for it.

 

[Phoenix]

I'm willing to give the APA a go to get us an even better JCBA with a few thousand more pilots standing behind them. USAPA, as you may have noticed, hasn't done anything except get us an injunction.

What will APA do with a few more thousand "yes" pilots?

We aren't buyers pooling our money together to buy a contract from management. We are the sellers. Unions don't go to the company store to buy better contracts, they have to wait until management is in the buying mood. All any union has is labor to sell. If management isn't in the market to buy a new agreement, then no union can sell anything different. DUI had everything he needed until AA declared bankruptcy, at which time DUI got in the buying mood and ran to all three AA unions to quickly buy contracts in a matter of weeks, because he wanted to buy (more urgently than he has or will for the last ten years and the next ten).

You keep looking at it like we are buyers and can't get DUI to offer to sell us more. He isn't selling. He's buying and won't change his offer until we answer his buy offer. If the APA had agreed to accept DUI's last best buy offer (that the BOD recommended) then DUI would have gladly paid less than what he was willing to pay. Because the APA declined to accept his buy offer, DUI had to raise his offer, repeat his offer, or decide to walk.

DUI pretends he doesn't need us to complete a merger yet he scrambled to get the three AA unions to sell, he panicked when USAPA was sending out MOU1 with a "no" recommendation, and he desperately wanted a unanimous MOU2 recommendation (enough to promise retro pay).

The JCBA won't change squat. The purchase is over when the MOU passes. The MOU provides for arbitration to finalize JCBA negotiation disagreements. Arbitration to finish negotiations.

The MOU is the end game and I have no doubt that DUI and his strategists have it in the bag.

 

[Metroyet]

Wait a minute. This has nothing to do with individuals and everything to do with the contractual group.
It's all about horse trading. We have something that Doug wants. What are we willing to take for it?
Is he taking advantage of the situation?
The old axiom of a good agreement being equally distasteful to both parties should apply here. Does it?
No, he doesn't have to come back to the table. But what are the consequences of that?
The intelligent action would be to re-negotiate a better deal. Billions of dollars will change hands with this deal, and a rejection vote would certainly throw a monkey wrench into that.
Use your leverage to get the best deal - and this ain't it. That's all I'm saying.
NO.

And if they refuse to "renegotiate"? Then what? Your fake union has ZERO power to do anything. Why isn't that obvious to you?

 

[nycbusdriver]

This merger is on. Horton is being moved to a more symbolic position and he'll get his money too.

Kicked upstairs, and out of the way. With a nice raise for doing nothing. Nice work if you can get it.

 

[nycbusdriver]

So who do you believe? Dave or the 11 members of the BPR who voted for this plan? Dave or the 4 member of the NAC who negotiated it? Dave or the 4 officers of USAPA who support it? Dave or USAPA's 3 attorneys who support it? Dave or the 8000 pilots at American who support it?

Dave.

I know Dave, and I know HE knows more about our contracts than anyone on the BPR or the NAC, and probably the attorneys, too. The attorneys never had to live the contract, so they can't appreciate its idiosyncrasies. It's not much different from the attorneys learning to fly airplanes by reading "Stick and Rudder."

And, from what I gather, not a whole lot of the American pilots, other than the APA weenies, are real keen on the whole idea of this merger.

 

[nycbusdriver]

The APA guys are not our friends, but by signing this agreement we will share a foxhole.

Greeter,

About halfway down on the right side of Aisle 10 in your store you will find tubes of KY Jelly. Best stock up. Those APA boys will be in the foxhole directly behind you. And you can be sure they won't bring those supplies.

 

[dca319]

Greeter,

About halfway down on the right side of Aisle 10 in your store you will find tubes of KY Jelly. Best stock up. Those APA boys will be in the foxhole directly behind you. And you can be sure they won't bring those supplies.

No need for KY. We've been getting nailed in the backside for 10 years with LOA93.

 

[dca319]

They'll be knocking on USAPA's door the minute the rejection is tallied.

Thanks for the laugh. Keep telling the waiter your date will be here any minute as he pours you your fifth glass of water.

 

[cleardirect]

First, the membership has to vote it down. If that happens, it is a clear mandate to the NAC to get something better.
Second, bring back in the Pitbull, Paul DiOrio. He has perhaps the most indepth knowledge of our contract. He was negotiating for us for how long? The company negotiators hate him - so make them deal with him. They make us deal with J. Glass.
Third, think about this: has this agreement met your expectations for our next contract? Because we could be living with it for a long time, if history is a guide. Also, this could be the best contract you'll ever see, because the next one might have MORE concessions.
What if there is a BK 2 at AA to clean up the items that weren't taken care of in BK1 (sound familiar?)? You know, Jerry Glass is helping run the show at AA....we all know his tactics personally.
Run the scenarios - don't let the big $$ signs blind you to what is really happening here.
You all know how fast your payrates can be reduced (overnight).
Clear is right, payback is a b1tch. Let management in on that concept, too.
NO.

A clear mandate to get more. Great. Please Doug give us more. How is that going to work out?.

Second the pit bull is a puppy. DiOrio was at the table for years and accomplish zero. Having the company negotiators hate our negotiator does not get us anything. I would rather have an effective negotiator instead of one that can only piss them off.

Just because your history us airways is that of failure and concessions does not mean that is the way the rest of the world works. Did delta refile? Has UAL gone back to court?

 

[cleardirect]

They both want this deal done. With a minimum of fuss.
Question is: how much does it take to buy your cooperation?
My answer is: What is offered is not enough.
They'll be knocking on USAPA's door the minute the rejection is tallied.
NO.

Talk to the negotiators. The UCC did not want to give us this much.

The UCC will do the deal and wait for the APA to put us on their already approved contract. The UCC will save several million dollars and will not spend a single minute thinking about the pilots at us airways.

The only door that will be knocked on will be the bank where the UCC and company put the extra money saved by not having an MOU.

 

[dca319]

Duplicate post

 

[dca319]

What will APA do with a few more thousand "yes" pilots?

We aren't buyers pooling our money together to buy a contract from management. We are the sellers. Unions don't go to the company store to buy better contracts, they have to wait until management is in the buying mood. All any union has is labor to sell. If management isn't in the market to buy a new agreement, then no union can sell anything different. DUI had everything he needed until AA declared bankruptcy, at which time DUI got in the buying mood and ran to all three AA unions to quickly buy contracts in a matter of weeks, because he wanted to buy (more urgently than he has or will for the last ten years and the next ten).

You keep looking at it like we are buyers and can't get DUI to offer to sell us more. He isn't selling. He's buying and won't change his offer until we answer his buy offer. If the APA had agreed to accept DUI's last best buy offer (that the BOD recommended) then DUI would have gladly paid less than what he was willing to pay. Because the APA declined to accept his buy offer, DUI had to raise his offer, repeat his offer, or decide to walk.

DUI pretends he doesn't need us to complete a merger yet he scrambled to get the three AA unions to sell, he panicked when USAPA was sending out MOU1 with a "no" recommendation, and he desperately wanted a unanimous MOU2 recommendation (enough to promise retro pay).

The JCBA won't change squat. The purchase is over when the MOU passes. The MOU provides for arbitration to finalize JCBA negotiation disagreements. Arbitration to finish negotiations.

The MOU is the end game and I have no doubt that DUI and his strategists have it in the bag.

We made Parker panic? That's a good one. I don't think we've made him break a sweat since we merged with the west. Parker got the unions he needed and we weren't one of them. We are and have been an afterthought. Once we merge, we'll have strength in numbers, no injunction, one pilot group, and a better union.

 

[cleardirect]

Wait a minute. This has nothing to do with individuals and everything to do with the contractual group.
It's all about horse trading. We have something that Doug wants. What are we willing to take for it?
Is he taking advantage of the situation?
The old axiom of a good agreement being equally distasteful to both parties should apply here. Does it?
No, he doesn't have to come back to the table. But what are the consequences of that?
The intelligent action would be to re-negotiate a better deal. Billions of dollars will change hands with this deal, and a rejection vote would certainly throw a monkey wrench into that.
Use your leverage to get the best deal - and this ain't it. That's all I'm saying.
NO.

Ok finally a little insight into the twisted mind of an east pilots.

Typical 180 degree incorrect view of the world.

A good deal is when BOTH parties think they got a good deal or the best deal they can get. Not in your purple world the least distasteful deal.


Not having an MOU does not throw a monkey wrench in the deal. It simple delays the us airways pilots from gaining anything for many months.

As you said billions are on the line. Pretty arrogant to think that a single work group would cost two companies. You think the MX, flight attendants, res agents, dispatchers, ect are going to be real happy with the east pilots if this deal were to fail because you their you could hold up the UCC for more money?

Reality check time!