From what's been posted here; I've no reason whatsoever to believe that the most fervent cheerleaders for it have ever even read it, but quite the contrary in fact.
Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion
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From what's been posted here; I've no reason whatsoever to believe that the most fervent cheerleaders for it have ever even read it, but quite the contrary in fact.
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
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To Whom This Concerns:
Per the history of the USAir pilot to give as much away as possible. Is it possible the company offered the best for the company least for the pilots in this MOU. And has ready a modified MOU should this insulting MOU gets voted down.
I bet they do have ready a series of MOU's to offer based on the voting percentage results.
I voted no Mark F. Butler
[email protected]
Per the history of the USAir pilot to give as much away as possible. Is it possible the company offered the best for the company least for the pilots in this MOU. And has ready a modified MOU should this insulting MOU gets voted down.
I bet they do have ready a series of MOU's to offer based on the voting percentage results.
I voted no Mark F. Butler
[email protected]
Since when? Your contingent maintains some bizarre fantasy that a mere 1700 or so of you alone can throw the world into fearful chaos, with but the threat of yet another law suit.
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
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Here is some food for thought for your readership.
If the MOU passes, we all know what happens next. No secret.
What if the MOU does NOT pass???
We keep scope and min block hours AND our pay goes back to "Book
rates". 190 pilots would suffer for a time period until a JCBA
If we go to arbitration for seniority, then we would be bringing to
the table a much higher pay rate than the AA pilots. The westies
wouldn't be bringing much to the table. No Large airplanes. No high
pay rates. No international routes. No orders for Airbus 350's. And
only one Hub that is not very profitable. The east pilots would have
a much better argument for being harmed than the west would and fair a
better chance at DOH or something better that NIC award. I know that
we may have to grieve the COC pay, but I'm sure we would win. If East
pilots are willing to fight for COC instead of MOU, we would have a
better chance of doing better in an arbitrated seniority list. Just
my thoughts!!!!
We get the pay, we get the scope and we get the seniority. It's
worth the risk and the fight.
I voted for the MOU, but then changed it to a NO vote today.
Respectfully,
Tom Sloan
f/o ab phl
If the MOU passes, we all know what happens next. No secret.
What if the MOU does NOT pass???
We keep scope and min block hours AND our pay goes back to "Book
rates". 190 pilots would suffer for a time period until a JCBA
If we go to arbitration for seniority, then we would be bringing to
the table a much higher pay rate than the AA pilots. The westies
wouldn't be bringing much to the table. No Large airplanes. No high
pay rates. No international routes. No orders for Airbus 350's. And
only one Hub that is not very profitable. The east pilots would have
a much better argument for being harmed than the west would and fair a
better chance at DOH or something better that NIC award. I know that
we may have to grieve the COC pay, but I'm sure we would win. If East
pilots are willing to fight for COC instead of MOU, we would have a
better chance of doing better in an arbitrated seniority list. Just
my thoughts!!!!
We get the pay, we get the scope and we get the seniority. It's
worth the risk and the fight.
I voted for the MOU, but then changed it to a NO vote today.
Respectfully,
Tom Sloan
f/o ab phl
Against such reasonable thinking's lately arrayed a sizeable storm of infantile fear and irrational hysterics here though. Frankly; I'm starting to be quite grateful, from an entirely selfish perspective for a monent, that little to none of this need much matter to me.
I'm reluctant to ever presume the least bit of prescience, but it's blatantly obvious to my mind that no/zip/zero/nada situation will EVER exist in the forseeable future, that at all rivals this period in terms of opportunity for advancement. Consider that literally billions are in play, with self-seeking, greed-soaked, opportunistic narcicissts looking to line their personal pockets with many millions and feed their grandiose management egos as best they can, and necessarilly without much reasonable concern for any costs contained. The sheer volume of floating funds alone affords a unique period that won't likely EVER be duplicated within anyone currently employed's careers. Contrast the current reality with nebulous and at best, purely wishful future fantasies.
traderjake
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 5,669
- 9,308
And Kasher will pay.
You really think that will happen Courtney?
First off, we won't return to book rates. If the company doesn't find a way around them then they'll protract the grievance we file. It'll be years before that sees the light of day. And once the APA becomes our union, CoC will become moot because we'll move onto their contract.
Second, we threw the 190 pilots under the bus. That's just such a great idea.
Third, everything Tom pointed out was argued in the original arbitration? Does he now think we'll get a different answer?
If Tom wasn't drunk when he put this together then he's very naive or ignorant. It's guys like him that scare me.
Still waiting for your plan General. Or is your ego not allowing you to have to explain yourself?
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
- 14,119
The New B-Scale
Already famous for the launch of the B-scale in the 80’s, the APA has done it again with the E190 Captain rate of $114/hr. It is true the airplane is included in the parity review on January 1, 2016 and is expected to be brought up to $147 an hour but since the parity review is done by adding a certain percentage increase to an artificially low rate, the $147 will reflect well below industry standard for the E190. To make matters worse, the NAC is avoiding telling you that contained in the APA contract is the following language:
Neither party shall, without the written consent of the other party, seek to modify the pay relationship (i.e. ratio) set forth in Section 3.E. between Group I and Groups II – V through the processes of the Railway Labor Act for a period of two (2) contract cycles or ten (10) years from DOS, whichever is later.
Do you understand what it means? It means the B-scale E190 rates will be here for over a decade before APA is even allowed to discuss it with management. They have agreed to not bring it up for 10 years or two Section 6 negotiating cycles whichever is longer.
And how did the APA go about mitigating the lower E190 pay? With this language:
Pilots flying Group I aircraft may pick-up as restricted only by FAR limits.
This is the only fleet that is allowed a cap of FAR limits. It looks like this was the APA’s way of addressing the lower hourly pay.
Already famous for the launch of the B-scale in the 80’s, the APA has done it again with the E190 Captain rate of $114/hr. It is true the airplane is included in the parity review on January 1, 2016 and is expected to be brought up to $147 an hour but since the parity review is done by adding a certain percentage increase to an artificially low rate, the $147 will reflect well below industry standard for the E190. To make matters worse, the NAC is avoiding telling you that contained in the APA contract is the following language:
Neither party shall, without the written consent of the other party, seek to modify the pay relationship (i.e. ratio) set forth in Section 3.E. between Group I and Groups II – V through the processes of the Railway Labor Act for a period of two (2) contract cycles or ten (10) years from DOS, whichever is later.
Do you understand what it means? It means the B-scale E190 rates will be here for over a decade before APA is even allowed to discuss it with management. They have agreed to not bring it up for 10 years or two Section 6 negotiating cycles whichever is longer.
And how did the APA go about mitigating the lower E190 pay? With this language:
Pilots flying Group I aircraft may pick-up as restricted only by FAR limits.
This is the only fleet that is allowed a cap of FAR limits. It looks like this was the APA’s way of addressing the lower hourly pay.
I remember that promise.
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
- 14,119
Subj: Inaccurate Pay Rates
[background=#fff][background=transparent]All -[/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]Below is language reprinted from Supplement A of the APA Contract. It resides just below the portion of Supplement A which describes how pay parity raises your pay in 2016, which ties all groups to the raise given to Group 2. This has been determined -- actually, estimated -- to be something on the order of a 16.5% raise. However, it has now been determined that this is absolutely not accurate in all cases (Does $11/hour matter to ya?)[/background][/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]The language below describes how those raises are "capped." As you'll see, they are "capped" at the weighted average of Delta and United rates.[/background][/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]Here's what you need to know about this:[/background][/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]1) In several instances, the 2016 pay rates advertised in the color brochure that was mailed to your home are incorrect. In some cases, the actual pay is some $11/hour lower.[/background][/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]2) That lower pay will continue for 2017 and 2018 because those years are based on 2016 rates.[/background][/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]3) For Group 1 (currently E190) there will be a sizable decrease in rate ($8/hour for Captains) if, by chance, United starts operating the aircraft. The rate will go from $147 to $139.[/background][/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]Our beleaguered E190 pilots must now wish, hope, and pray that United never operates the airplane, or suffer the loss of up to $8000/year -- every year -- in 2016, 2017, and 2018. Actually, since it's a 3.5% raise for those two years, the rates advertised in the brochure are nearly $10/hour too high in 2018, should United start flying the E190.[/background][/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]Have you ever been placed in a situation where the simple addition of a fleet type at a competing airline would cause you to loose $25,000 over a three year period?[/background][/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]This gross error has been confirmed as a problem by our NAC Chairman. Some sort of communication should be coming out from them at some point, but I am deeply committed to getting the truth out as soon as possible so that our decisions are made in broad daylight.[/background][/background][/background]
[background=#fff][background=transparent]All -[/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]Below is language reprinted from Supplement A of the APA Contract. It resides just below the portion of Supplement A which describes how pay parity raises your pay in 2016, which ties all groups to the raise given to Group 2. This has been determined -- actually, estimated -- to be something on the order of a 16.5% raise. However, it has now been determined that this is absolutely not accurate in all cases (Does $11/hour matter to ya?)[/background][/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]The language below describes how those raises are "capped." As you'll see, they are "capped" at the weighted average of Delta and United rates.[/background][/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]Here's what you need to know about this:[/background][/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]1) In several instances, the 2016 pay rates advertised in the color brochure that was mailed to your home are incorrect. In some cases, the actual pay is some $11/hour lower.[/background][/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]2) That lower pay will continue for 2017 and 2018 because those years are based on 2016 rates.[/background][/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]3) For Group 1 (currently E190) there will be a sizable decrease in rate ($8/hour for Captains) if, by chance, United starts operating the aircraft. The rate will go from $147 to $139.[/background][/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]Our beleaguered E190 pilots must now wish, hope, and pray that United never operates the airplane, or suffer the loss of up to $8000/year -- every year -- in 2016, 2017, and 2018. Actually, since it's a 3.5% raise for those two years, the rates advertised in the brochure are nearly $10/hour too high in 2018, should United start flying the E190.[/background][/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]Have you ever been placed in a situation where the simple addition of a fleet type at a competing airline would cause you to loose $25,000 over a three year period?[/background][/background]
[background=transparent][background=transparent]This gross error has been confirmed as a problem by our NAC Chairman. Some sort of communication should be coming out from them at some point, but I am deeply committed to getting the truth out as soon as possible so that our decisions are made in broad daylight.[/background][/background][/background]
luvthe9
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 9,464
- 14,119
[background=transparent]FROM SUPPLEMENT "A" -- APA CONTRACT 2012[/background]
[background=transparent]c. Notwithstanding the foregoing, the application of the Industry
Comparable Pay Rate Adjustment to any aircraft pay rate grouping
of the Company will not cause such average hourly pay rate to
exceed the average of the aircraft weighted average pay rates for
such aircraft pay rate grouping at United Continental and Delta
Airlines, calculated as set forth in i. below (the "Adjustment
Maximum").
(1) For each aircraft pay rate grouping, the aircraft weighted
average pay rate for each of United Continental Holdings
and Delta Airlines will be calculated as follows:
(a) The number of aircraft of each aircraft type in such
aircraft pay rate grouping operated by the Company on
DOS + 30 will be multiplied by the hourly base pay rate
that will be in effect on DOS + 36 months for twelve (12)
Supplement A - 3
year Captains for such aircraft type at United
Continental Holdings or at Delta Airlines, as the case
may be. If at the time Industry Comparable Pay Rates
are calculated:
i. the pilots of United and of Continental continue to
operate under separate pilot contracts, the simple
average of the hourly base pay rates of United or
Continental will be used for a particular aircraft
type;
ii. United Continental Holdings or Delta Airlines does
not operate the S80 or the A321, the hourly base
pay rates for the B737-800 will be used for such
aircraft types; and
iii. the Company operates an aircraft type that United
Continental Holdings or Delta Airlines does not
operate (other than as set forth in 2. above), the
hourly base pay rates for the most comparable
aircraft type, based on maximum certificated
seating capacity, will be used.
and
( B) The products calculated in subsection A. will be summed
for such aircraft pay rate grouping.
and
© The result of the calculation in subsection B. will be
divided by the total number of aircraft of all aircraft types
in such aircraft pay rate grouping operated by the
Company at DOS + 30.[/background]
[background=transparent]c. Notwithstanding the foregoing, the application of the Industry
Comparable Pay Rate Adjustment to any aircraft pay rate grouping
of the Company will not cause such average hourly pay rate to
exceed the average of the aircraft weighted average pay rates for
such aircraft pay rate grouping at United Continental and Delta
Airlines, calculated as set forth in i. below (the "Adjustment
Maximum").
(1) For each aircraft pay rate grouping, the aircraft weighted
average pay rate for each of United Continental Holdings
and Delta Airlines will be calculated as follows:
(a) The number of aircraft of each aircraft type in such
aircraft pay rate grouping operated by the Company on
DOS + 30 will be multiplied by the hourly base pay rate
that will be in effect on DOS + 36 months for twelve (12)
Supplement A - 3
year Captains for such aircraft type at United
Continental Holdings or at Delta Airlines, as the case
may be. If at the time Industry Comparable Pay Rates
are calculated:
i. the pilots of United and of Continental continue to
operate under separate pilot contracts, the simple
average of the hourly base pay rates of United or
Continental will be used for a particular aircraft
type;
ii. United Continental Holdings or Delta Airlines does
not operate the S80 or the A321, the hourly base
pay rates for the B737-800 will be used for such
aircraft types; and
iii. the Company operates an aircraft type that United
Continental Holdings or Delta Airlines does not
operate (other than as set forth in 2. above), the
hourly base pay rates for the most comparable
aircraft type, based on maximum certificated
seating capacity, will be used.
and
( B) The products calculated in subsection A. will be summed
for such aircraft pay rate grouping.
and
© The result of the calculation in subsection B. will be
divided by the total number of aircraft of all aircraft types
in such aircraft pay rate grouping operated by the
Company at DOS + 30.[/background]
Metroyet
Veteran
- Nov 1, 2008
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- 5,664
The Scab Tom Sloan is an idiot as well. Litigation awaits....
traderjake
Veteran
- Aug 30, 2002
- 5,669
- 9,308
Piedmont had a B Scale before American.
New hires were paid 10% less for the first 5 years, that was before the start of American's and Piedmont's official B scales.
A320 Driver
Veteran
- Aug 24, 2002
- 3,358
- 2,319
Weak minded fools let angry people with an ax to grind suck the logic and reason right out of their heads.
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