robbedagain
Veteran
Dawg I did not know PA had a hub in MIA I knew Eastern had one there n in ATL
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Yep. United got it. The plan was for Delta to end up with it, but Ron Allen over paid for the Europe network. Then, because of Delta's lack of name in Europe, the network started quickly bleeding cash.robbedagain said:Dawg I did not know PA had a hub in MIA I knew Eastern had one there n in ATL
Delta only dumped the planes because the A310s were complete crap.eolesen said:DL can "win" the "we bought the most employees" award hands down. It's a dubious award, but have at it.
When AA bought the EA LatAm routes, they didn't take on any airplanes. Likewise with the LHR routes from TW.
Therefore, they had no immediate need to take on employees. Out of respect for the politics involved, they offered employment to over 1,000 EA employees outside the US.
Both UA and DL chose to do multiple deals which required transferring airplanes and crews, and both wound up dumping those airplanes.
Yes, PA did have a hub in MIA before the DL debacle -- in 1985, they were already operating dailies to POS-BGI-CCS-FPT-GUA-MAR-MEX-SXM-STT-GIG and weekly frequencies to EZE and SCL. By 1990, that had grown to include PTY, SAP, SAL, MGA, SJO, MBJ, KIN, GCM, PLS, SDQ, PUJ, SJU and NAS. Domestically in 1990, they had MIA-LAX/DFW/IAH in addition to JFK.
they weren't "replacements"WorldTraveler said:and the 310s that Airbus built for DL as replacements still couldn't fly the Atlantic.
The employees that DL hired were retained.
Did AF or LH ever operate their A310s across the Atlantic? Were they restricted as well?WorldTraveler said:and no, the 310s could not even fly NYC-Europe easily ... or correctly they could not get back.... from much more than Ireland and the UK unless the wind was favorable.
I had always heard the MD11 was not that effective of an aircraft But for quite a while World Air operated them even based 2 or 3 of them at BWI for MAC flights.. now its Omini with 2 777s both 2 and 3 models and a 763 The question regarding the MD11 is what made it not as good of an airplane
not that I know of, Frugal.Did AF or LH ever operate their A310s across the Atlantic? Were they restricted as well?
No shortage of 310's back then (aside from the fact that there weren't too many airlines operating them).FrugalFlyerv2.0 said:Did AF or LH ever operate their A310s across the Atlantic? Were they restricted as well?
No the original plan was for the 45 aircraft, 21 from PA the rest new from AB, to all operate the Euro network.WorldTraveler said:yes, the 310s DL bought were to retire the Pan Am delivered 310s which were rustbuckets.
OALs did it for years.WorldTraveler said:and no, the 310s could not even fly NYC-Europe easily ... or correctly they could not get back.... from much more than Ireland and the UK unless the wind was favorable.
The 310s were used on both.WorldTraveler said:The L10s and M11s were considerably larger aircraft and were not used for the same types of markets. The 310s were used for continental Europe, largely outside of FRA.
at ~3000nm the A310-300 would have 2000nms of range to spare.WorldTraveler said:and DL had routes out of CVG and DTW including to LGW that the 310 could not make.
The 310-200 was basically the 762. The 300 was like 500nm short of a non-wingleted 763ER.WorldTraveler said:and the 310 still was an Airbus version of a 762 but without the range. If DL wanted a plane that small, they would have bought the 762ER.... DL already had the 762 instead they bought the 763 and it is one of the most versatile aircraft in the world. Not many aircraft work well on domestic routes and can also fly the Pacific and most of DL's int'l network and make money doing it all.
I can't remember the 200s but the PA 300s were 10F 26C 138Y. the New 300s were 10F/28C/134Yrobbedagain said:dawg what was the capacity of the 310 and the md 11 as well as the L15s
WorldTraveler said:dawg can jump in if he can remember but the 310s had about 180 seats.
The L15s were in the 225 to 240 range, the L1011-250s were about 250 seats, and the MD-11s were slightly larger.
The 310s and L12s never flew the Pacific, which is the discussion of this thread. The L15 was DL's first aircraft operating the first route to NRT from ATL via PDX. The M11s were originally used from LAX and then later PDX.
I don't think the M11 was ever used from NYC to Europe but was used from JFK to the Middle East on 9/10/01 and the final trip back to the US might have been the end of their life across the Atlantic or close to it.
The M11 had already proven it couldn't do most of the flying across the Pacific which the 777 now easily does.
It worked for World because they got them on the cheap and don't need to stretch the legs. ATL-HHN isn't a big deal for the M11. Much cheaper to run the MD11 on flights like that than a brand new 777.robbedagain said:I had always heard the MD11 was not that effective of an aircraft But for quite a while World Air operated them even based 2 or 3 of them at BWI for MAC flights.. now its Omini with 2 777s both 2 and 3 models and a 763 The question regarding the MD11 is what made it not as good of an airplane
Yes and I don't know. For the most part the A310-300 shouldn't have had issues from CDG/FRA to around the middle of the country.FrugalFlyerv2.0 said:Did AF or LH ever operate their A310s across the Atlantic? Were they restricted as well?
MSP won't see anything like what DTW has seen, but MSP-ICN will end up happening.WorldTraveler said:I'll defer to dawg - and I hope he will respond - but the M11 was heavy and the wing had not been reengineered from the D10.
Unfortunately, McD D ran out of financing to keep improving its aircraft.
being competitive from an engineering perspective is far more important on longhaul widebody aircraft than on short haul domestic aircraft which is why the M90 still has life (at least for DL) but there is no room for operating an inferior aircraft from an engineering and performance standpoint.
BTW, Richard Anderson made a comment in MSP recently that indicated that DL is leaning towards at least one of the new generation widebodies (A350 or 787) which could be used to expand MSP to Asia service.
I've always thought that DL needed to develop MSP to Asia; there is a strong auto industry in DTW but MSP has a lot of high value global business and MSP is of course an outstanding hub.
Having Pacific operations as well as hubs on both sides of ORD would mirror the success DL has from the Midwest as whole right now, including to Europe.
not that I know of, Frugal.