OCT/NOV 2012 IAM Fleet Service Discussions

[700UW]

In 1992, when US Fleet and Customer Service were non-union the company took away their vacation, sick time, oji proctection, downgraded 40% to part-time there by increasing their medical to over $300 a month. Part-time hours were capped at 25 hours and many of them were split shifts. They outsourced, mail, cargo, express work and most of catering. In Charlotte you had to have had 15 years to hold full-time.

So myself at the time was in maintenance and had three years with the company and I wasnt effected like they were, cause I had a union and a CBA and they had to negotiate with my union in order to accomplish concessions.

Many of the west have never been through what the east has been through.

And if you compare the NW and DL bankruptcies the NW employees fared better than their non-union counterparts at DL.

And you BM, there are many offenses that you can get terminated for immediately and there are no three strikes.

 

[Kev3188]

Kev, you are usually better than this. Sure you personally see value and derive benefit from having representation but you must understand that plenty of people in the airline industry and other industries-in fact the vast majority of workers in the US have happy, productive, and successful careers without representation.

My response was the short answer to the question: "What has my union ever done for me?" As for never "needing a union," the sad reality is that I've seen far too many cases where people said just that, only to be blindsided by a manager that shot first and asked questions later. With representation, you have recourse. W/O it, you don't. That's not some sort of pro-labor shock doctrine on my part; it's a sad reality in today's (aviation) world.

Any thoughts on the UA pilot TA? Seems they will be giving up considerable scope for pay rates below what DL offered six months before their amendable date. Remember other work groups are protected by pilot scope too.

I haven't really seen enough of the specifics to weigh in. With that said, any time you give up Scope it's generally a step backwards.

Not for nothing, but it's interesting to see what the DL pilots were able to negotiate compared to what other workgroups were given.

And if you compare the NW and DL bankruptcies the NW employees fared better than their non-union counterparts at DL.

True- all the more so given what the company (NW) was looking to do.

And you BM, there are many offenses that you can get terminated for immediately and there are no three strikes.

Also true.

 

[737823]

My response was the short answer to the question: "What has my union ever done for me?" As for never "needing a union," the sad reality is that I've seen far too many cases where people said just that, only to be blindsided by a manager that shot first and asked questions later. With representation, you have recourse. W/O it, you don't. That's not some sort of pro-labor shock doctrine on my part; it's a sad reality in today's (aviation) world.

Fair enough, we largely agree to disagree here but I'll remind you enough of your coworkers at DL are satisfied enough (at least they were in September-October 2010 time frame) with DL and do not fear wrongful termination and all the things you believe the union can protect against. jetBlue, Virgin America, GoJet and other carriers are partially non-union so clearly not all believe a union is necessary and you can have a successful airline career without a union. Even in an at will employment agreement it could wind up being a costly endeavor to wrongfully discharge a worker and in practice doesn't happen often. It's as ridiculous as the assertions throughout the AFA campaign that DL changes payrates at the whim simply because they have the ability to do so.

I haven't really seen enough of the specifics to weigh in. With that said, any time you give up Scope it's generally a step backwards.

Not for nothing, but it's interesting to see what the DL pilots were able to negotiate compared to what other workgroups were given.

The scope clause is probably the most important clause in the contract, without scope nothing else you negotiate matters.

For the pilot's sake, it's well documented and even acknowledged by the airlines that a shortage is imminent so they should receive pay and employment terms consistent with this reality.

http://newsfeed.time...ince-the-1960s/
http://online.wsj.co...1643223634.html

Josh

 

[freedom]

I have really good news for you Freed... (whoops) I mean Magic... I have researched job opportunities in the PHX area... and there are 4,462 to choose from!

I guess your pessimism on the economy there isn't as bad as you would like for everyone to believe... now is it?

Go to this link to apply for any one of these 4,462 jobs that are immediately available!

I have really good news for you Freed... (whoops) I mean Magic... I have researched job opportunities in the PHX area... and there are 4,462 to choose from!

I guess your pessimism on the economy there isn't as bad as you would like for everyone to believe... now is it?

Go to this link to apply for any one of these 4,462 jobs that are immediately available!

whoa whoa , don't confuse black magic and me as one ... i pay my dues , and while i may not agree with the cost structure of the IAM or think that the people running the pension have half a brain , i won't abondon my brothers and sisters by shucking my duties as a good union memeber .

it's true that i'm a republican , but i'm more driven to that party by my dislike of the democrats and their attempts to legalize the 12 million "undocumented workers " living in the shadows waiting to steal our jobs ...

i don't blame the president for the state of our economy ... i blame him for authorizing more forginen workers when we already have millions of our own people unemployed ...

but back to the matter at hand ....

this thread seems to have drifted into is it worth it to have a union ? DUH of course it's worth it ! to anyone at US airways who thinks unions suck , take a trip around the aiport and take a look at most of the NON-union companies ... their workers get dumped on 24-7 ... heck we even have guys who left the ramp to go work for some service company and have come back again , talk to them , and ask them how they were treated ....

i still can't understand how people can be anti-union when we make a decent paycheck and have good benfits compared to most of the non union population here in AZ ...

 

[Kev3188]

The scope clause is probably the most important clause in the contract, without scope nothing else you negotiate matters.

Quite right. You sure you didn't cut-n-paste that from one of my posts?

 

[Kev3188]

i still can't understand how people can be anti-union when we make a decent paycheck and have good benfits compared to most of the non union population here in AZ ...

Easy; they've been conditioned by non-stop corporate messaging to believe that "union" is a 4-letter word...

 

[grasscutter]

In 1992, when US Fleet and Customer Service were non-union the company took away their vacation, sick time, oji proctection, downgraded 40% to part-time there by increasing their medical to over $300 a month. Part-time hours were capped at 25 hours and many of them were split shifts. They outsourced, mail, cargo, express work and most of catering. In Charlotte you had to have had 15 years to hold full-time.

So myself at the time was in maintenance and had three years with the company and I wasnt effected like they were, cause I had a union and a CBA and they had to negotiate with my union in order to accomplish concessions.

Many of the west have never been through what the east has been through.

And if you compare the NW and DL bankruptcies the NW employees fared better than their non-union counterparts at DL.

And you BM, there are many offenses that you can get terminated for immediately and there are no three strikes.

I think your numbers are a little off because I held full time day shift with less than 10 years

 

[john john]

Kev, you are usually better than this. Sure you personally see value and derive benefit from having representation but you must understand that plenty of people in the airline industry and other industries-in fact the vast majority of workers in the US have happy, productive, and successful careers without representation.

Any thoughts on the UA pilot TA? Seems they will be giving up considerable scope for pay rates below what DL offered six months before their amendable date. Remember other work groups are protected by pilot scope too.

Josh

American West Airlines passenger services agents had some of the worst pay and benefits and work rules in the airline industry because they did not have a union contract and were employed at will

 

[Black Magic]

I think all the local pizza chains should become unionized. That way the pizza boy can make $30 an hour to deliver pizza aswell as large pizza price be raised to $40.

The free market and business management determine a workers salary imo.

 

[ograc]

I think all the local pizza chains should become unionized. That way the pizza boy can make $30 an hour to deliver pizza aswell as large pizza price be raised to $40.

The free market and business management determine a workers salary imo.

You are correct. When their is no union representation for unskilled labor they certainly do determine an employees' salary, benefits and ultimate worth. With no union representation business management and the free market sets your worth and wage at, or below, poverty in this country. The decline in union represented jobs and the middle class in this country is no coincedence. Without checks and balances greed, one of the original sins, affords corporate America, the CEOs, shareholders and corporate officers to take a bigger portion of the pie... leaving crumbs for the workers. A practice that lacks morality. You are free to believe in and support this ideology but I do not. It goes against the moral fiber that I was raised with.
ograc

 

[ograc]

The recent posts on this forum represent various points of view. Some based on opinion and others based on fact. In an effort to gain consensus among those engaged in this forum I ask the following question:
Do you believe, as an unskilled Fleet Service worker within this industry, you would be better off with or without union representation?
Please be honest. I'll afford everyone 48 hours to respond. Let's lay the cards on the table shall we?

 

[ChockJockey]

I think all the local pizza chains should become unionized. That way the pizza boy can make $30 an hour to deliver pizza aswell as large pizza price be raised to $40.

We're unionized and none of us are making $30/hr.

The free market and business management determine a workers salary imo.

Indeed. But when the consumer for labor also sets the price for labor wages will only fall. Would you be happy to do this job for minimum wage if the wisdom of the market said that is what it's worth?

 

[Black Magic]

You are correct. When their is no union representation for unskilled labor they certainly do determine an employees' salary, benefits and ultimate worth. With no union representation business management and the free market sets your worth and wage at, or below, poverty in this country. The decline in union represented jobs and the middle class in this country is no coincedence. Without checks and balances greed, one of the original sins, affords corporate America, the CEOs, shareholders and corporate officers to take a bigger portion of the pie... leaving crumbs for the workers. A practice that lacks morality. You are free to believe in and support this ideology but I do not. It goes against the moral fiber that I was raised with.
ograc

I can respect that, a person's upbringing definitely shapes their views. My beef is people need to realize that not everyone is equal and deserves the same lifestyle. Just like some kids in school got A's and some got F's, its not fair to punish those that achieve or the american way is lost. The problem is the democrat party does nothing but reward poverty, and eventually there is not enough people willing to work to support those that don't. If everyone focused on achieving instead of taking, society would thrive.

After seeing 1st hand how the rest of the world lives in my travels, people at the poverty level of a republican society live like kings compared to most parts of the world. Eventually though people see mtv, hollywood, ect showing people with nicer lifestyles then them and find "they want theirs too." And they feel intitled to it without going through the fire to get it. Maybe if the poor went to other countries outside the US they would get a reality check on how blessed they are, time for them to focus on the things they have in their life instead of things they don't.

 

[Black Magic]

We're unionized and none of us are making $30/hr.


Indeed. But when the consumer for labor also sets the price for labor wages will only fall. Would you be happy to do this job for minimum wage if the wisdom of the market said that is what it's worth?

America West tried the minimum wage deal and it only worked for them so long. In the later years they found they couldn't get people to stay for at least a couple years without bumping it up a couple dollars. Thats simply the cost of doing business. If they want to pay more for a more productive/reliable workforce then that's their choice. Delta is case point, they choose to pay their workforce what they feel is necessary for a solid running business.

Interesting note, old American West hired mostly college students who worked to help pay for schooling. You put in your time on the ramp and after you graduated you moved on to future ventures.

 

[ChockJockey]

it's true that i'm a republican , but i'm more driven to that party by my dislike of the democrats and their attempts to legalize the 12 million "undocumented workers " living in the shadows waiting to steal our jobs ...

i don't blame the president for the state of our economy ... i blame him for authorizing more forginen workers when we already have millions of our own people unemployed ...

I think the irony here is that you don't realize that it's the economic and foreign policies championed by the Republican Party that stimulate illegal immigration in the first place. They want capital, information, and goods to flow across borders unhindered in the name of free trade but when labor starts to flow across borders as well they want to put up fences and walls. Those economic liberalization initiatives that ravaged traditional economies and social orders in Mexico and Latin America in the name of free market globalization? All those people they displaced now economically redundant due to "pro-business" policies formulated in Washington are the same ones risking their lives crossing rivers and deserts so they can wash dishes as a Pei Wei for five bucks an hour. This is to say nothing about U.S. drug policies (favored by the Republican party) coupled with American demand for narcotics that facilitates and fuels the narco-terroristic civil war ravaging Mexico.

Why would the Republican party want to do anything about illegal immigration? Jester mentioned this before. It motivates their base, allows them to be re-elected with promises of stopping it, is a downward force on wages, and provides defense, security, and prison contractors (i.e, GOP contributors) with fat government contracts. If you want a hermetically sealed border you should go to North Korea and see how well it's working for them.