OCT/NOV 2012 IAM Fleet Service Discussions

[Kev3188]

Cargo...

This is a "no brainer"! We wouldn't even be discussing it in this forum...because FS would not exist if there were no union! It would be a third party contract group that does not consider itself part of the industry!

+1000

I'd only add that FS wouldn't exist not just at US, but at *any* carrier...

 

[ChockJockey]

I disagree, the US economy was strongest when it was a producer and jobs were plentiful. Now US is becoming more and more of an importer of products produced overseas. This is due to businesses moving to other countries for cheap labor. It makes no sense for say an auto maker to pay someone in the US $30 an hour to put a hubcap on a car, when a worker in china will do it for a $2 an hr. I don't like it either but thats the painful truth.

The business that are staying are doing so because of geographic/demographic reasons and/or combinations of tax breaks/benefits/wages that don't but the business in the red (a loss). Once that tide changes meaning the fiscal cliff everyone keeps hearing about, businesses either downsize or vanish.

If you want to bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S. there are a couple of ways I think it can be done: you can either banish the minimum wage or heavily subsidize commerce via tax breaks, etc. The first paves the way for economic servitude (eventual subsistence wages). The second has states and municipalities undercutting one-another to attract businesses by slashing the budgets for public services. Your crumbling schools produce compliant semi-educated people and your prisons fill as crime rates rise. Laws intended to protect consumers, the environment and the rights and safety of employees would be rolled back or unenforced, at a cost to the health and welfare of the general public. The market has seemingly reached a stage where it's cannibalizing social goods in order to maintain profits. The culprit? Wealth accumulation and consolidation into fewer hands, creating wide inequality in economic - and political - resources. This is a consequence of the free market's own dynamics and operation.

The upshot is, how much of a reduction in the quality of life are you willing to take in order to keep the economic engine running?

We should be careful that we do not allow the market to devalue us to the degree that our economic worth is insufficient to protect our political rights, for once you allow it to treat you as an object or commodity there's no reason to think the state won't also...

 

[Kev3188]

What could possibly go wrong?

(sarcasm, of course)

 

[ograc]

It's true the growing disparity between the avg worker and ceo salary have become much distant. Thats just the effect of the global changing economy. But you can't "bite the hand that feeds" ie business to force upon them more benefits and higher pay of they will simply pack up shop and move the show elsewhere. A job is better than no job at all imo.

Black Magic,
Your continued faith and belief in the past "trickle down" economic policies of this country is puzzling. Historically, this ideology and policy has failed the common middle class, blue collar, union represented worker in this country. This ideology has opened a "pandora's box" of corporate greed and record profits while leaving the majority of unskilled workers working at poverty level wages with no benefits. The unions and the majority of the citizens in this country aren't buying into this failed ideology.They've seen enough. The electorate and voters in the recent election have made that very clear. IMO... Let them move their business elswhere... because they are slowly reducing this country into third world status as it is. By the way... you have not responded to my poll question. Still waiting.
ograc

 

[Black Magic]

And why do you think that change has occurred over the last 3 decades?

What do you think the answer is?

Because countries like China and India are overtaking the US. Quite simply, their people are willing to do more for less.

As far as the answer maybe America just needs to get some sack and do the same. Time for the freeloaders to stop sucking on uncle sams tit.

 

[Black Magic]

Black Magic,
Your continued faith and belief in the past "trickle down" economic policies of this country is puzzling. Historically, this ideology and policy has failed the common middle class, blue collar, union represented worker in this country. This ideology has opened a "pandora's box" of corporate greed and record profits while leaving the majority of unskilled workers working at poverty level wages with no benefits. The unions and the majority of the citizens in this country aren't buying into this failed ideology.They've seen enough. The electorate and voters in the recent election have made that very clear. IMO... Let them move their business elswhere... because they are slowly reducing this country into third world status as it is. By the way... you have not responded to my poll question. Still waiting.
ograc

I think I've been very clear on the problem and the next 4 years will prove it loud and clear. More tax/wages/benefits on a business=downsizing or elimination of business=less jobs, higher cost of goods/services=piss poor economy. Perhaps we should get everyone to write it on the chalkboard 100 times.

I didn't know you had a poll? If you want a answer from me on union vs no union, my choice is if you had 2 companies with the same pay, benefits, and work rules I would choose no union.

As far as working at US Airways fleet service, I feel they could get rid of union for fleet service if the had a same or slightly higher pay scale/benefits. However in this airline industry management has crunched the numbers and figured out that it is cheaper to let this workforce decide to be unionized and I have no problem with that. The company is ok with it so I'm along for the ride aswell.

 

[ograc]

I think I've been very clear on the problem and the next 4 years will prove it loud and clear. More tax/wages/benefits on a business=downsizing or elimination of business=less jobs, higher cost of goods/services=piss poor economy. Perhaps we should get everyone to write it on the chalkboard 100 times.

I didn't know you had a poll? If you want a answer from me on union vs no union, my choice is if you had 2 companies with the same pay, benefits, and work rules I would choose no union.

As far as working at US Airways fleet service, I feel they could get rid of union for fleet service if the had a same or slightly higher pay scale/benefits. However in this airline industry management has crunched the numbers and figured out that it is cheaper to let this workforce decide to be unionized and I have no problem with that. The company is ok with it so I'm along for the ride aswell.

Your post speaks volumes. 'I'm along for the ride as well". You reap the benefits of a union represented job but critisize the very organization that fought for your wages and benefits. You speak of a choice between "2 companies with the same pay, benefits and work rules" and openly admit you would choose to be non union. Another admission you are along for the ride your getting from union representation within the industry. The second company you speak of only offers comparible compensation benefits as a result of the industry average driven by union represented jobs in the craft and class. When you speak of free loaders and those who expect entitlements and hand outs as a result of the hard work of others I encourage you to take a look in the mirror. You have openly admitted "I'm along for the ride as well". Why do I get the feeling you wouldn't honor your own union's picket line? There is a label for people like you... and it's worse than being labeled a 'dues objector". As far as your Republican anti 'trickle down" scare tactics and equations... I have heard it all before. The fact is, historically, your trickle down ideology has failed miserably in the past. It damn near brought this country into another economic depression. The nation has spoken... we will not go back to the failed economic policies of the past.

 

[Kev3188]

Because countries like China and India are overtaking the US. Quite simply, their people are willing to do more for less.

So you honestly don't think that monied interests lobbying for looser regulations on trade and/or manufacturing had nothing to do with the demise of that base in this country?

Can you honestly not see that as wages go, so too goes the economy?

Of course they'd go somewhere cheaper! Less wages = more profits. That's nice except that money doesn't get put back into the economy the way they'd like you to think it does; they sit on it. Meanwhile, as the downward pressure on wages increases, tax bases get cut, and the amount of money people spend is lessened as well. Remember, we live in a consumerist economy. Big business doesn't create jobs; the demand for goods & services outpacing the capacity to supply them does.

Bring this back around to fleet service, who do you think contributes more to an economy; the topped out guy at US, or the dude making $7.50/hr. at Servisair? Which one is more likely to take their family out to eat? To buy clothes? Employ a local contractor to remodel their home (or even buy one in the first place)? Which one do you think contributes more to the local tax base, which in turn funds education so that we can have workers better able to compete in the global economy? How 'bout improving the nation's infrastructure so that products can move more efficiently (read: cheaper) through the supply chain?

When you're listening to all the pat Rand-ian talking points, do they cover things like multiplier effects, or is it just easier to say that workers are overpaid?

Tell ya what; you agree to work for minimum wage for a year, and tell us how it goes.

As for taxes, you don't need more taxes, we need to close the existing loopholes. Don't like the national debt? Are you aware that Paul Ryan's "Path to Prosperity" would actually *add* 4.6 Trillion in debt over 10 years. Yeah. That's what tax cuts do. The rich get richer, and we all pay for it. Great plan. As I said to CJ, what could possibly go wrong?

 

[Black Magic]

Your post speaks volumes. 'I'm along for the ride as well". You reap the benefits of a union represented job but critisize the very organization that fought for your wages and benefits. You speak of a choice between "2 companies with the same pay, benefits and work rules" and openly admit you would choose to be non union. Another admission you are along for the ride your getting from union representation within the industry. The second company you speak of only offers comparible compensation benefits as a result of the industry average driven by union represented jobs in the craft and class. When you speak of free loaders and those who expect entitlements and hand outs as a result of the hard work of others I encourage you to take a look in the mirror. You have openly admitted "I'm along for the ride as well". Why do I get the feeling you wouldn't honor your own union's picket line? There is a label for people like you... and it's worse than being labeled a 'dues objector". As far as your Republican anti 'trickle down" scare tactics and equations... I have heard it all before. The fact is, historically, your trickle down ideology has failed miserably in the past. It damn near brought this country into another economic depression. The nation has spoken... we will not go back to the failed economic policies of the past.

I guess in 4 years you can remember me saying "I told you so."

FWIW if there was only 1 choice in a company such as America West where the pay was roughly $9 an hour with top out at $15 and nice benefits. I would certainly choose that over no job at all. TWU represented and the company still couldn't keep the hiring revolving door fast enough as people kept quitting.

Anyway I'm out for the night. You boys play nice now.

 

[Black Magic]

Who likes twinkies and cupcakes? I do...well say bye to that. The Hostess plant is liquidating. Add another 18500 to the unemployment number.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/16/hostess-brands-to-liquidate-lay-off-18500-after-crippling-union-fight/

 

[700UW]

Why dont you post the real story?

BCTGM represented employees gave three rounds of concessions all ready and the company took them to court and had their CBA abrogated and imposed so they struck.

http://bctgm.org/PDFs/HostessLiquidation11_15_12.pdf

http://bctgm.org/PDFs/HostessFactSheet.pdf

All ready being discussed here:
http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/54621-twinkees-dead-union-charged-with-ho-homicide/

 

[Black Magic]

Why dont you post the real story?

BCTGM represented employees gave three rounds of concessions all ready and the company took them to court and had their CBA abrogated and imposed so they struck.

http://bctgm.org/PDF...ion11_15_12.pdf

http://bctgm.org/PDF...ssFactSheet.pdf

All ready being discussed here:
http://www.airlinefo...th-ho-homicide/

Bottom line the real story is..THEY DON'T HAVE A JOB ANYMORE

I posted it here, because it pertains to exactly what I was talking about last night.

 

[700UW]

Bottom line is they had seven different CEOs in the past 10 years and management failed the company. The employees stepped up three times to save their jobs.

 

[Black Magic]

Bottom line is they had seven different CEOs in the past 10 years and management failed the company. The employees stepped up three times to save their jobs.

Yes its always managments fault. I would expect nothing less.

 

[700UW]

Are you that obtuse?

The union stepped up three times and gave concessions over the past few years, Interstate is in their second chapter 11 filing had has had SEVEN different CEOs in the past 10 years.

The facts speak for themselves, if you cant comprehend it then you are a lost cause.