OCT/NOV 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

!!!! CHALLENGE TO ANY FORMER AWA TO ANSWER THIS POST !!!!

It doesn't sound like an AWA "stand-alone" business model carried any less risk than US Airways.

Question to AWA PILOTS: What would be the chances of AWA getting financing in Bankruptcy as a "stand-alone" for their "business model" if the merger HADN'T gone through?

Here is what Doug said. You don't believe him, I know.

Doug Parker Charlotte F/A Crew news 09/2011 stated: "We have filmed it. People can watch it, but that's what happened."

"USAir ‑‑ America West was not in dramatically better shape. While we weren't on the verge of, you know, going away liquidating, as I have said a number of times, I believe without a merger ‑‑ well, let me tell you. By putting the two companies together, a lot of new money came in is the answer to your question.

America West did not have the money to go fund the merger or anything close to it. And, indeed, I think America West standalone ‑‑ this is ‑‑ this gets some America West people upset because, you know, they ‑‑ anyway, whatever reason.

But my view is, and a highly educated view on this point, is that America West would have been bankrupt by the end of 2005.

If you recall, by the end of 2005, Delta and Northwest both filed, and I don't think America West could have ‑‑ I'm pretty sure ‑‑ I'm actually, virtually certain that America West would have filed bankruptcy because we didn't have enough cash to make it through the winter in that environment.

So ‑‑ and then more importantly, as it relates to America West, the reason the merger was so important to America West is America West was an airline that lived off a cost structure advantage.

Much like I describe to US Airways employees now, how we don't have the same revenue generating capabilities as American, Delta, and United, who are bigger than us. America West had that in spades.
A Phoenix hub never had the ability to generate the kind of revenues US Airways did, for example. But the airline survived 25 years by having much lower costs, and those lower costs almost entirely labor based.

So what had happened is, is you, you know, looking around the world, here at US Airways, for example, had gotten its labor costs through two bankruptcies and a lot of pain down to matching America West.

That did not look like a good formula for the America West ‑‑ for America West Airlines. You have an airline now that has, not the same ability to generate revenues, and the same costs as the guys who can generate a lot more revenues than you. Those airlines go away.

So whether or not America West would have filed, you know, in late 2005, like I believe, that airline, I'm certain, wouldn't have been able to stand alone on its own in today's environment. You know, much like Frontier, was very ‑‑ it's very similar I think to America West.
You know, small West Coast, whole ‑‑ entirely labor‑cost‑based cost advantage. And, you know, Frontier went bankrupt. They are still floating around somewhere, but, you know, they are a fifth of the size they used to be. And I think that's the best I think America West could have done on its own.
So the merger helped both of us, and in a huge way. I don't think America West would have made it on its own. I'm certain US Airways wouldn't have. And with the merger, what we were able to do ‑‑ you know, which, again, I ‑‑ I think we should all feel good about ‑‑ we were able to go convince people that, while these two airlines on their own are having trouble, we can put them together and build a real airline, and all we need is cash.
And so will you, Mr. Investor, invest in this?
Now, we found some people who wanted to do that because they didn't want us to go away, like GE, who had a lot of airplanes leased to us, and Airbus, who had a lot of airplanes on order to both companies. So they put in monies because they didn't want to see us go away.
But we found some other, you know, just true equity investors, you know, stockholders that said, yeah, that looks like something that will work. I'll invest in that.
So the money that came to fund the merger didn't exist, and neither airline could have raised it on their own. It only came from the power of the merger.
So the merger saved both of us. So if anybody tells you, We saved you, vice versa, they are wrong. We saved each other. And we saved each other by merging the two companies and building a stronger airline.
And, again, I haven't had to say this in a few years, but I have said it a lot. And the story has been entirely consistent. So it's a little frustrating to me to have to keep saying it because I, like you, get tired of hearing this stuff.
It's just absolutely.
SPEAKER: That's exactly what it was.
MR. PARKER: It's just absolutely inaccurate.
So, anyway, hopefully this will help. We have filmed it. People can watch it, but that's what happened.

Blah, blah blah. There is really only one sentence in that entire thing that matters.


I don't think America West would have made it on its own. I'm certain US Airways wouldn't
have.

Doug Parker was not certain that America West would have made it leave some doubt. But he was certain that Us Airways would not have made it.

there is a difference between filing BK and liquidation. Parker was certain US Airways would liquidate.

But it is all moot. The only person that mattered decided. Nicolau understand and believed that the east was gone and like wilder has said. Decided that contract improvements and saving your career should be offset with seniority.

Go ask Roland Wilder about what happens in a merger when one pilots group has a piss poor contract and career expectation compared to the other pilot group.

 

[Claxon]

The west is not worried but they tried a hail Mary.

They wanted the East pilots to tie one hand behind their back, but they are not worried at all. Separate ops and no nicolau until a combined contract. They only thing they did not try to pass is east could not vote on anything only west franke pilots, but the west is not worried at all.


"The Board then considered the resolution shown below dealing with the NAC/Kirby Proposal, which due to a constitutional conflict was ruled out of order by the chair. A motion to amend the agenda to allow PHX to present an amended version of the resolution required a 2/3 majority vote and was defeated by a vote 6-5 (Yes - CLT McKee, DCA, PHX; No - CLT Crimi, Ingram, PHL).
WHEREAS nearly seven years have passed since the merger of US Airways and America West Airlines, and;
WHEREAS over five years have passed since the company offered US Airways pilots a comprehensive contract proposal known as “The Kirby Proposal,” and;
WHEREAS, notwithstanding US Airways expressed desire to merge with American Airlines, the company and USAPA remain obligated to negotiate a new joint contract covering all pilots of US Airways, and;
WHEREAS the current industry-lagging contracts under which USAPA pilots now work will likely present a liability to US Airways pilots during a future integration with any other carrier, especially American Airlines, and;
WHEREAS US Airways management continues to state that the “The Kirby Proposal” is an offer which remains on the table, and;
WHEREAS the rates of pay contained in the Kirby proposal would now equate to $152.02 (Group 2 Captain), $167.22 (Group 3 Captain), and $183.94 (Group 4 Captain), and;
WHEREAS the Kirby proposal was US Airways first comprehensive proposal its pilots, and neither ALPA's nor USAPA's Negotiating Committees made a counteroffer to US Airways based on the Kirby Proposal, and;
WHEREAS it has long been rumored that US Airways management stated that more money (ten percent more) might be available with the Kirby Proposal, and;
WHEREAS US Airways management recently offered the pilots of American Airlines pay rates of less than 10-15% more than those found in the Kirby Proposal.
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED THAT the USAPA BPR directs the Negotiating Advisory Committee to request an updated comprehensive proposal from US Airways management, and;
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT the USAPA NAC will immediately publish the company's offer, in its entirety and without comment, to the membership, and;
BE IT FUTHER RESOLVED that USAPA will hold a ratification vote on the company's proposal without offering a recommendation to the membership either for, or against it, and;
BE IT FINALLY RESOLVED THAT the ratification vote shall be scheduled to conclude within 60 days of receiving the company's offer."

 

[Move2CLT]

The west is not worried but they tried a hail Mary.

They wanted the East pilots to tie one hand behind their back, but they are not worried at all. Separate ops and no nicolau until a combined contract. They only thing they did not try to pass is east could not vote on anything only west franke pilots, but the west is not worried at all.


"The Board then considered the resolution shown below dealing with the NAC/Kirby Proposal, which due to a constitutional conflict was ruled out of order by the chair. A motion to amend the agenda to allow PHX to present an amended version of the resolution required a 2/3 majority vote and was defeated by a vote 6-5 (Yes - CLT McKee, DCA, PHX; No - CLT Crimi, Ingram, PHL).
WHEREAS nearly seven years have passed since the merger of US Airways and America West Airlines, and;
WHEREAS over five years have passed since the company offered US Airways pilots a comprehensive contract proposal known as “The Kirby Proposal,” and;
WHEREAS, notwithstanding US Airways expressed desire to merge with American Airlines, the company and USAPA remain obligated to negotiate a new joint contract covering all pilots of US Airways, and;
WHEREAS the current industry-lagging contracts under which USAPA pilots now work will likely present a liability to US Airways pilots during a future integration with any other carrier, especially American Airlines, and;
WHEREAS US Airways management continues to state that the “The Kirby Proposal” is an offer which remains on the table, and;
WHEREAS the rates of pay contained in the Kirby proposal would now equate to $152.02 (Group 2 Captain), $167.22 (Group 3 Captain), and $183.94 (Group 4 Captain), and;
WHEREAS the Kirby proposal was US Airways first comprehensive proposal its pilots, and neither ALPA's nor USAPA's Negotiating Committees made a counteroffer to US Airways based on the Kirby Proposal, and;
WHEREAS it has long been rumored that US Airways management stated that more money (ten percent more) might be available with the Kirby Proposal, and;
WHEREAS US Airways management recently offered the pilots of American Airlines pay rates of less than 10-15% more than those found in the Kirby Proposal.
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED THAT the USAPA BPR directs the Negotiating Advisory Committee to request an updated comprehensive proposal from US Airways management, and;
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT the USAPA NAC will immediately publish the company's offer, in its entirety and without comment, to the membership, and;
BE IT FUTHER RESOLVED that USAPA will hold a ratification vote on the company's proposal without offering a recommendation to the membership either for, or against it, and;
BE IT FINALLY RESOLVED THAT the ratification vote shall be scheduled to conclude within 60 days of receiving the company's offer."

I see your seizure is over.

Waiting on the next one.

 

[Claxon]

The west pilots phx base tried to pass another resolution.

west "Our west management pilot just illegally took a disk of all the East pilots names, date of birth, email address, social security numbers and other personal information, then you east guys cop us an attitude. Pass a motion to say we did not steal your id information because we saved you."


The resulting motion shown below was defeated by a vote of 1 - 10 (Yes - Scherff via proxy held by Velez).
WHEREAS on March 29th, 2011, the USAPA BPR brought charges against First Officer Eric Ferguson, Captain Ken Holmes, and Captain John Scherff, and;
WHEREAS prior to any meaningful investigation, USAPA mischaracterized the actions of First Officer Eric Ferguson, Captain Ken Holmes, and Captain John Scherff related to those charges as "criminal" and as "identity theft,” and;
WHEREAS USAPA filed a legal action against First Officer Ferguson in Texas, compelling him to sit for a formal deposition, and;
WHEREAS USAPA filed a legal action against Captain John Scherff in Alabama, compelling him to sit for a formal deposition, and;
WHEREAS the three accused pilots incurred substantial legal expenses responding to the foregoing actions and charges, and;
WHEREAS even after such investigation, no one has presented any evidence supporting such to the Appeals Board, the BPR, or any other forum, and;
WHEREAS the USAPA Appeal Board dismissed all such charges against Captain Scherff on June 16, 2011, and;
WHEREAS the USAPA Appeal Board dismissed all such charges against First Officer Ferguson and Captain Ken Holmes on June 1, 2012:
THEREFORE BE IT ALSO RESOLVED THAT USAPA will fully compensate Ferguson, Scherff, and Holmes for all reasonable attorney's fees and costs incurred responding to the foregoing actions and charges, in a sum not to exceed $150,000.00.

 

[Claxon]

Here is what Silver had to say about the fairness of the Nicolau award and your unsuccessfully attempt to change the DFR question.



Read that sentence over and over.

The Nicolau was not on trial. the duty to represent the west pilots fairly was. The courts did not to hear any more evidence on the "fairness" of the Nicolau. An neutral arbitrator is all the evidence a court needs.




One more time.
An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result.

Read the nicolau, it did not say I, it said we or the board. Who were the other parties included in the we?

 

[end_of_alpa]

Here's your answer: It doesn't matter. You can not evade your responsibility by changing the union name. We didn't start this, but we will finish it. SYIC-A

Here is YOUR answer with the supporting document. See you in court.
BTW, We didn't start it either.... Doug Parker did. See my last post about the merger transcript which none of you care about but will be in DFR II when he's called to testify.


"Pursuant to the Court’s resolution of the motions for summary judgment,

IT IS ORDERED Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is
entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint.

US Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation
provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose.

DATED this 11th day of October, 2012.

/s/
Judge Roslyn O. Silver
Chief United States District Judge

Question for West Pilots: How come the cactus pilot website leaves THIS document, Judgment Document 194 off their website???

 

[nycbusdriver]

One more time.
An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result.

She said "powerful." Not exclusive.

If USAPA caved on Nicolau, her statement would certainly be a strong warning to east pilots a DFR regarding any DFR they might consider.

 

[Claxon]

The board was Nicolau, Brucia, CAL pilot and Gillen, UAL,pilot. The Rice, UAL pilot, committee was a supposed firewall. US Airways was in informal talks with UAL and CAL at the time of the nicolau. More to follow.

Best of luck to you.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Here is what Silver had to say about the fairness of the Nicolau award and your unsuccessfully attempt to change the DFR question.



Read that sentence over and over.

The Nicolau was not on trial. the duty to represent the west pilots fairly was. The courts did not to hear any more evidence on the "fairness" of the Nicolau. An neutral arbitrator is all the evidence a court needs.

The east had a chance to file whatever charges against nicolau when the award came out. No fraud was found.


One more time.
An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result.

Wake, Silver or any court is not going to allow a DFR trial to delve into the "fairness" of the list. That has already been determined.

The order had three components to it:

I. Background, II. Summary Judgment Standard, III. Discussion.

In short, What is the History, what is the LAW and what is the JUDGMENT. It has become the general format all the courts use and few arbitrators.

Here when Silver states "An impartial arbitrator's decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful EVIDENCE of a fair result."

This is obiter dictum, meaning this statement is NOT necessary for the body of the decision. Judges say what the law is and the jury decides whether a preponderance of the evidence supports the argument made by the plaintiffs. This statement would not be admitted into the record if and when DFR II ever comes about. "Discarding the Nicolau award places USAPA on dangerous ground" is, again, obiter dictum and like the prior statement has yet to even be admitted to in court.

On the other hand, in the paragraph BEFORE this "dictum", Judge Silver SUPPORTS USAPA's position by stating (WITH CITATION) that:


'But being “bound” by the Transition Agreement has very little meaning in the context
of the present case. It is undisputed that the Transition Agreement can be modified at any
time “by written agreement of [USAPA] and the [US Airways].” (Doc. 156-3 at 38).
Moreover, USAPA and US Airways are now engaged in negotiations for an entirely new
collective bargaining agreement and there is no obvious impediment to USAPA and US
Airways negotiating and agreeing upon any seniority regime they wish. As explained by the
Ninth Circuit, “seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement, and so
may be revised or abrogated by later negotiated changes in this agreement.” Hass v.
Darigold Dairy Products Co., 751 F.2d 1096, 1099 (9th Cir. 1985). And a union “may
renegotiate seniority provisions of a collective bargaining agreement, even though the
resulting changes are essentially retroactive or affect different employees unequally.” Id."

As usual, AOL continues to "tilt at wind mills". See you in court.

 

[Claxon]

Oh, by the way, did I mention prater was a CAL pilot. At the time of the nicolau, he was president of ALPA. The ALPA president handed over a list to US Airways.

Bada bing, bada boom.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Blah, blah blah. There is really only one sentence in that entire thing that matters.


I don't think America West would have made it on its own. I'm certain US Airways wouldn't
have.

Doug Parker was not certain that America West would have made it leave some doubt. But he was certain that Us Airways would not have made it.

there is a difference between filing BK and liquidation. Parker was certain US Airways would liquidate.

But it is all moot. The only person that mattered decided. Nicolau understand and believed that the east was gone and like wilder has said. Decided that contract improvements and saving your career should be offset with seniority.

Go ask Roland Wilder about what happens in a merger when one pilots group has a piss poor contract and career expectation compared to the other pilot group.

".....what happens in a merger when one pilots group has a piss poor contract and career expectation compared to the other pilot group?

Exactly what we have now. The company wants seniority resolved FIRST. AOL wants seniority resolved FIRST. Roland and Pat want seniority resolved last. Why? To increase their billable hours, just like Harper, et al.

I not only want this issue to be resolved FIRST, I want the Supreme Court to find that the place to determine that the violating of the unions DFR BEGINS WITH THE LONGEVITY OF THE CONSTITUENTS THEY REPRESENT and any legitimate union purpose whose reasoning differs from that is subject to scrutiny.

I can tell you this, I will support the company and NEVER the union if my years of service are subservient to yours. My blood is as red as yours and I have years of service that carry the same weight as yours. If the senior most pilots of this company doesn't agree with me, that longevity is subverted by nothing then I'm not a union man and will fly any aircraft whether they strike or not.

 

[cleardirect]

Here is YOUR answer with the supporting document. See you in court.
BTW, We didn't start it either.... Doug Parker did. See my last post about the merger transcript which none of you care about but will be in DFR II when he's called to testify.


"Pursuant to the Court’s resolution of the motions for summary judgment,

IT IS ORDERED Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is
entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint.

US Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation
provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose.

DATED this 11th day of October, 2012.

/s/
Judge Roslyn O. Silver
Chief United States District Judge

Question for West Pilots: How come the cactus pilot website leaves THIS document, Judgment Document 194 off their website???

Left out the important part of the order.

"IT IS FURTHER ORDERED the Clerk of Court shall enter judgment dismissing
Counts I and III of the complaint and in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II
of the complaint stating US Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach
its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose.
DATED this 11th day of October, 2012."

So far usapa does not have a LUP.

BTW you did start it. It was the east pilots that walked out of joint negotiations. It was east pilots that changed unions. It is east pilots that don't have a LUP for avoiding the Nicolau. It is east pilots that can't get a contract.

Parker is just helping you along.

That was not a merger transcript. That was Parker at a crew news spreading more BS. If you would like to post merger transcripts that were taken by people under oath feel free.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Blah, blah blah. There is really only one sentence in that entire thing that matters.


I don't think America West would have made it on its own. I'm certain US Airways wouldn't
have.

Doug Parker was not certain that America West would have made it leave some doubt. But he was certain that Us Airways would not have made it.

there is a difference between filing BK and liquidation. Parker was certain US Airways would liquidate.

But it is all moot. The only person that mattered decided. Nicolau understand and believed that the east was gone and like wilder has said. Decided that contract improvements and saving your career should be offset with seniority.

Go ask Roland Wilder about what happens in a merger when one pilots group has a piss poor contract and career expectation compared to the other pilot group.

There you go, no answer.

FYI, under the BK code there is chapter 11 "restructuring" and chapter 7 liquidation. Again, US Airways most likely would have liquidated (already under chapter 11 but didn't convert to chapter 7) and AWA would have filed chapter 11 (but didn't).

Why? Read Parker's statement again, which you won't. I don't care what Nicolau wrote, he doesn't vote, nor does he control what I do in life. It's y choice to fly and if he thinks we're worth less than you then I'm coming to work and I support the company and not the union because that is NOT what unionism is about.

There is your answer.

 

[cleardirect]

The order had three components to it:

I. Background, II. Summary Judgment Standard, III. Discussion.

In short, What is the History, what is the LAW and what is the JUDGMENT. It has become the general format all the courts use and few arbitrators.

Here when Silver states "An impartial arbitrator's decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful EVIDENCE of a fair result."

This is obiter dictum, meaning this statement is NOT necessary for the body of the decision. Judges say what the law is and the jury decides whether a preponderance of the evidence supports the argument made by the plaintiffs. This statement would not be admitted into the record if and when DFR II ever comes about. "Discarding the Nicolau award places USAPA on dangerous ground" is, again, obiter dictum and like the prior statement has yet to even be admitted to in court.

On the other hand, in the paragraph BEFORE this "dictum", Judge Silver SUPPORTS USAPA's position by stating (WITH CITATION) that:


'But being “bound” by the Transition Agreement has very little meaning in the context
of the present case. It is undisputed that the Transition Agreement can be modified at any
time “by written agreement of [USAPA] and the [US Airways].” (Doc. 156-3 at 38).
Moreover, USAPA and US Airways are now engaged in negotiations for an entirely new
collective bargaining agreement and there is no obvious impediment to USAPA and US
Airways negotiating and agreeing upon any seniority regime they wish. As explained by the
Ninth Circuit, “seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement, and so
may be revised or abrogated by later negotiated changes in this agreement.” Hass v.
Darigold Dairy Products Co., 751 F.2d 1096, 1099 (9th Cir. 1985). And a union “may
renegotiate seniority provisions of a collective bargaining agreement, even though the
resulting changes are essentially retroactive or affect different employees unequally.” Id."

As usual, AOL continues to "tilt at wind mills". See you in court.

Really! You think she put this statement in her order to support usapa?

there is no obvious impediment to USAPA and US Airways negotiating and agreeing upon any seniority regime they wish.

That was put in telling the company they have no excuse not to negotiate with usapa. It is just usapa has to have a LUP. So far usapa has not found an LUP that the company agrees with.

 

[Claxon]

Left out the important part of the order.

"IT IS FURTHER ORDERED the Clerk of Court shall enter judgment dismissing
Counts I and III of the complaint and in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II
of the complaint stating US Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach
its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose.
DATED this 11th day of October, 2012."

So far usapa does not have a LUP.

BTW you did start it. It was the east pilots that walked out of joint negotiations. It was east pilots that changed unions. It is east pilots that don't have a LUP for avoiding the Nicolau. It is east pilots that can't get a contract.

Parker is just helping you along.

That was not a merger transcript. That was Parker at a crew news spreading more BS. If you would like to post merger transcripts that were taken by people under oath feel free.

Your former west mec leader and now angry f/o proves the ignorant and misleading post you made, I am just trying to be franke with you.

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/addington_filings/Doc043_McIlvenna_Affidavit.pdf