Why no contract from the Association?

[Buck]

Nice conversation, however let me tell you what is going to happen.
The TWU/IAM, the Association and the company are going to make their deal and it will not be good for the Mechanic group as a whole.
The Mechanics will grumble, gripe and complain and do nothing. Line Mechanics since TULE has failed for 30 years, please inform me what to do.
At this point it is look out for number one.

 

[swamt]

This was explained to me by a USAIR tech ops guy. We got into a detailed conversation. There is more but I only remembered the highlights. I doubt any of the restrictions have changed since we spoke several months back. I keep telling guys that the iampf is part of the equation for the creation of the association. Unfortunately we have thick headed dumb asses that still are in denial and listen to the twu. All I hear is we want a contract. The 5 extra holidays and doubletime seem to be more important than the future of our retirement. Financially we are screwed if we get forced in the iampf scam.

I wouldn't think your mechanic group would be like this, but, could it be that the majority of the group is younger than, say, 30ish? Sorry forgot you guys have all those other groups attached within your contract and to this day I still do not know all the different groups that are in there. So asked a little differently, could it be that the majority of "group involved" are of the younger ages focusing on $$$, hol's, vac's, etc??? Usually it's the older 50's-60's and sometimes even 70's and 80's are the retirement focused ones. Yes we have 70 and 80 somethings still here working as I believe you guys do to. Just some thoughts to toss around.

 

[Bob Owens]

Buck;
Perhaps, the younger generation has even less interest in the Union than we did when we were hired. Now with the screwing they got with the changes to Flex Rates even less. Senior guys need to put more effort into informing and teaching the Young, let them know what we once had, plus there is an issue with "Brand". Sometimes a Brand becomes so tarnished there is no way to repair it. The TWU can be fixed, but it wont be because they don't care about what Maint has to say. That was made clear at the last Convention and clear from the current make up of the ATD. Lombardo repeatedly told Maint guys "Go ahead leave". They don't even pretend to care. If you have the time, energy and interest, start a card drive. The structure has changed dramatically, its in the Line guys hands now but having tried so many times many have just given up. If Tulsa started a drive and made the 50% mark the line guys would sign , they would sign anything at this point but they arent going to initi. Like I said if we decide to leave i'd rather start from scratch with a Union that leaves the door open for others, doesn't rely on grassroots and actively seeks to better the legal situation of Airline workers. Current rulings leave Airline Unions nearly powerless, with the exception of the Pilots none of the other unions seem to care.The IAM did show up to support the Pilots at a hearing on reforms to the bankruptcy Code as it affects Airline workers but did not give much input. Pilots looking like Victims is not an effective strategy.

 

[Bob Owens]

I wouldn't think your mechanic group would be like this, but, could it be that the majority of the group is younger than, say, 30ish? Sorry forgot you guys have all those other groups attached within your contract and to this day I still do not know all the different groups that are in there. So asked a little differently, could it be that the majority of "group involved" are of the younger ages focusing on $$$, hol's, vac's, etc??? Usually it's the older 50's-60's and sometimes even 70's and 80's are the retirement focused ones. Yes we have 70 and 80 somethings still here working as I believe you guys do to. Just some thoughts to toss around.

Nope, maturity level wise maybe but chronologically the average is mid 50s.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Buck;
Perhaps, the younger generation has even less interest in the Union than we did when we were hired. Now with the screwing they got with the changes to Flex Rates even less. Senior guys need to put more effort into informing and teaching the Young, let them know what we once had, plus there is an issue with "Brand". Sometimes a Brand becomes so tarnished there is no way to repair it. The TWU can be fixed, but it wont be because they don't care about what Maint has to say. That was made clear at the last Convention and clear from the current make up of the ATD. Lombardo repeatedly told Maint guys "Go ahead leave". They don't even pretend to care. If you have the time, energy and interest, start a card drive. The structure has changed dramatically, its in the Line guys hands now but having tried so many times many have just given up. If Tulsa started a drive and made the 50% mark the line guys would sign , they would sign anything at this point but they arent going to initi. Like I said if we decide to leave i'd rather start from scratch with a Union that leaves the door open for others, doesn't rely on grassroots and actively seeks to better the legal situation of Airline workers. Current rulings leave Airline Unions nearly powerless, with the exception of the Pilots none of the other unions seem to care.The IAM did show up to support the Pilots at a hearing on reforms to the bankruptcy Code as it affects Airline workers but did not give much input. Pilots looking like Victims is not an effective strategy.

Spot on as usual Bob. Glad you are back.

 

[Traymark]

I keep telling guys that the iampf is part of the equation for the creation of the association. Unfortunately we have thick headed dumb asses that still are in denial and listen to the twu. All I hear is we want a contract. The 5 extra holidays and doubletime seem to be more important than the future of our retirement. Financially we are screwed if we get forced in the iampf scam.

That's not exactly what I'm hearing. There is a lot of "we want a contract" but it is Always attached to "and shove the IAMNPF up your arse, we want none of it".
I don't even want the language of a choice for it if it means it will lower what they would increase our Match ,
they need to make the Match a Contribution and increase it, we've earned it.

Everyone at the table for LAA knows full well, we do not want the IAMPF. If there's language that forces us into it, there should be a card drive started the day that TA comes out, and it doesn't even matter who it's for, the TWU & IAM should be voted off the property if the TA has LAA forced into the IAMPF.

 

[Buck]

Buck;
Perhaps, the younger generation has even less interest in the Union than we did when we were hired. Now with the screwing they got with the changes to Flex Rates even less. Senior guys need to put more effort into informing and teaching the Young, let them know what we once had, plus there is an issue with "Brand". Sometimes a Brand becomes so tarnished there is no way to repair it. The TWU can be fixed, but it wont be because they don't care about what Maint has to say. That was made clear at the last Convention and clear from the current make up of the ATD. Lombardo repeatedly told Maint guys "Go ahead leave". They don't even pretend to care. If you have the time, energy and interest, start a card drive. The structure has changed dramatically, its in the Line guys hands now but having tried so many times many have just given up. If Tulsa started a drive and made the 50% mark the line guys would sign , they would sign anything at this point but they arent going to initi. Like I said if we decide to leave i'd rather start from scratch with a Union that leaves the door open for others, doesn't rely on grassroots and actively seeks to better the legal situation of Airline workers. Current rulings leave Airline Unions nearly powerless, with the exception of the Pilots none of the other unions seem to care.The IAM did show up to support the Pilots at a hearing on reforms to the bankruptcy Code as it affects Airline workers but did not give much input. Pilots looking like Victims is not an effective strategy.

Yes I agree, however historically the talkers that say they are going to resort to even DFR's are never there when the need arises. The BRAND, TWU is tarnished beyond repair as long as the Association in there.
And yes I am saying this, it should have been the TWU that was our collective representitive. When the Internationals have the ability to make changes that the members belive they cannot, whether a vote is promised or not, then who can say that our Frozen Pension is secure from negotiations. The Line Guys who were not available to support change of representation when I and others started attempting this over 25 years ago, now want at least the Association gone. You cannot have a card drive against the Association and keep one of it's entity's. When the Line has a majority signed I am more than willing to pick up the stick here again. The problem on the floor here today for the seniors on down is the threat of the Frozen Pension being used in some form in or out of negotiations, where that pension becomes "liquid" enough to trade for another item. If it is removed from bankruptcy protection and it's only protector is the PBGC, it could be in trouble. The TWU members lacking parity with their fellows at the IAM, while the Association plays their games. I believe that the IAMPF is a hold up as it is a financial, that is worth $2.20 an hour to the Mechanic and Related and if I refuse to particpate where does that company funding go to those who select not to participate? The memebrs want 401k Matching Parity, they still see DL +7% and do not understand when Isom says we have 30%-40% more mechanics than DL. Q: Is there any way that our Fozen Pension can be used in negotiations, even with the bankruptcy judge okaying it, that puts it in jeopardy? We should have and I believe still join the pilots.

 

[toroshark]

That's not exactly what I'm hearing. There is a lot of "we want a contract" but it is Always attached to "and shove the IAMNPF up your arse, we want none of it".
I don't even want the language of a choice for it if it means it will lower what they would increase our Match ,
they need to make the Match a Contribution and increase it, we've earned it.

Everyone at the table for LAA knows full well, we do not want the IAMPF. If there's language that forces us into it, there should be a card drive started the day that TA comes out, and it doesn't even matter who it's for, the TWU & IAM should be voted off the property if the TA has LAA forced into the IAMPF.

Total agreement on all points of LAA being forced into the IAMPF

 

[Bob Owens]

Yes I agree, however historically the talkers that say they are going to resort to even DFR's are never there when the need arises. The BRAND, TWU is tarnished beyond repair as long as the Association in there.
And yes I am saying this, it should have been the TWU that was our collective representitive. When the Internationals have the ability to make changes that the members belive they cannot, whether a vote is promised or not, then who can say that our Frozen Pension is secure from negotiations. The Line Guys who were not available to support change of representation when I and others started attempting this over 25 years ago, now want at least the Association gone. You cannot have a card drive against the Association and keep one of it's entity's. When the Line has a majority signed I am more than willing to pick up the stick here again. The problem on the floor here today for the seniors on down is the threat of the Frozen Pension being used in some form in or out of negotiations, where that pension becomes "liquid" enough to trade for another item. If it is removed from bankruptcy protection and it's only protector is the PBGC, it could be in trouble. The TWU members lacking parity with their fellows at the IAM, while the Association plays their games. I believe that the IAMPF is a hold up as it is a financial, that is worth $2.20 an hour to the Mechanic and Related and if I refuse to particpate where does that company funding go to those who select not to participate? The memebrs want 401k Matching Parity, they still see DL +7% and do not understand when Isom says we have 30%-40% more mechanics than DL. Q: Is there any way that our Fozen Pension can be used in negotiations, even with the bankruptcy judge okaying it, that puts it in jeopardy? We should have and I believe still join the pilots.

I believe our benefits once earned can not be taken away, so other than us agreeing to something (like rolling it over into the IAMNPF for credits in that plan) its about as secure as it gets Frozen. Even if AA went BK again they would have to fight the PBGC, and the Pilots to get a courts OK to dump them, and we were told that since we were under the $54k cap we would get the same from the PBGC as we will get from AA. It behooves us to try and undo what Jim Little asked us to help them do which is where the Feds allowed them to under-fund the Pensions to preserve cash for the company, we should be demanding that some of the Billions they are showing in Profits be used to make the fund 100% funded. 100% funded as in there are enough funds there to cover their obligations, not 100% funded as the rules allow. I guess the only problem with that is that it would make the IAMNPF more eager to take us in and give us credits. Some are calling me a fear monger, but we know that the Association plans on putting us in the IAMNPF, we also know that they never gave specifics as to whether that meant going forward or rolling our AA Pension in and getting Credits, perhaps as a sweetener credits even for the years it was frozen, but we would likely lose the retire at 60 , 55 with 3% penalty per year. We must always remember that the Association lied to us from the very beginning by saying we would have a vote. Jim Little may have said it but the IAM never challenged it.

 

[Bob Owens]

That's not exactly what I'm hearing. There is a lot of "we want a contract" but it is Always attached to "and shove the IAMNPF up your arse, we want none of it".
I don't even want the language of a choice for it if it means it will lower what they would increase our Match ,
they need to make the Match a Contribution and increase it, we've earned it.

Everyone at the table for LAA knows full well, we do not want the IAMPF. If there's language that forces us into it, there should be a card drive started the day that TA comes out, and it doesn't even matter who it's for, the TWU & IAM should be voted off the property if the TA has LAA forced into the IAMPF.

A card drive then would be way too late. The fact is they have had their two years. Two years of shut up and we will tell you what we want you to know. ZERO Contract language to see. They brought the LUS wage up to ours but did not bring our Holidays, Vacation , Sick time etc up to theirs. They screwed our younger guys who were on the Flex rates.

Why is it unreasonable to go for what the Pilots get for their 401k? 17% at our rate is a lot less than 17% at their rate. I'd be willing to wait till 2018 for that. They no longer have to retire at 60, now they can stay till 65 , lets face it who wants to be walking across a snow covered tarmac at 65? maybe by reaching for 17% we could end up where the SWA mechanics are at over 9%. Sure beats 5.5%. which beats the IAMNPF at $2.20 for 2080 hours.

 

[JABORD]

T-Mark,
"Everyone at the table for LAA knows full well, we do not want the IAMPF. If there's language that forces us into it, there should be a card drive started the day that TA comes out, and it doesn't even matter who it's for, the TWU & IAM should be voted off the property if the TA has LAA forced into the IAMPF."

Absolutely, our number one issue today. But I would suggest the idea highlighted as to applying our efforts in a reactionary way would be too late, at least for most of us if that TA were to pass. The time is now. It has proven to have gotten our Representation's attention in the past and any display of our efforts to do another drive should provide some positive results.

Welcome back Bob.

 

[Traymark]

A card drive then would be way too late. The fact is they have had their two years. Two years of shut up and we will tell you what we want you to know. ZERO Contract language to see

Absolutely, our number one issue today. But I would suggest the idea highlighted as to applying our efforts in a reactionary way would be too late, at least for most of us if that TA were to pass. The time is now. It has proven to have gotten our Representation's attention in the past and any display of our efforts to do another drive should provide some positive results.

I don't disagree with either of you, but like Bob said earlier, any card drive has to start at Tulsa with over 50% there. Good luck getting any of them to sign anything before they see this TA.
No card drive will be successful without 60% of Tulsa. Most of the LAA line stations are nearly 100% already.

 

[swamt]

I am with Bob on this one. Starting a card drive after this contract is too late, as they will have already forced you guys into the pension. The time is now for another card drive, that way the nego team knows how serious you guys are about change. When they see a record card count in a record amount of time they do what ever the membership wants at that point, but that is what it will take.

 

[1AA]

Years of participation in cards drives you will always hear it's never a good time for a card drive. Sadly that's why most of them had failed.

In or out of negotiations you will always have guys complain. Best one is we will lose our cba if we change unions. Then the one where if we do a drive the negotiations will take longer. Until that stupid mindset is overcome we will have difficulty with any future card drive.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I don't disagree with either of you, but like Bob said earlier, any card drive has to start at Tulsa with over 50% there. Good luck getting any of them to sign anything before they see this TA.
No card drive will be successful without 60% of Tulsa. Most of the LAA line stations are nearly 100% already.

Any card drive is hampered by the LUS employees who are all being held hostage by their broke pension. That is about 30% who will not sign cards.