2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[ograc]

When we went on strike in 92 they didnt impose a new CBA and terms.

Once again. Speculation that should be considered; but noted as such, by the members. Again. No one person has the magical crystal ball to see what is in our collective futures. Not posters on this forum, the NC or the company. Too many parties and factors involved for anyone to know for sure. In the meantime... We call. Deal the cards! 
Lock and Load!

 

[Tim Nelson]

Certain? Your speculation could end up being correct. But until then it is speculation. No one knows for sure. There are others who speculate a different outcome.

We can say a few things for certain.
1. The TWU has to file within 6 months of effective date or it will be in breach of contract, and that the TWU will allow the Association to file the application.
2.  We also know that the TWU finances are not nearly as sustainable as the IAM's, and although we can't say with certainty that AH will toss in a lawsuit seeking incredible monetary damages, it is foolish to think he won't.
 
While anyone can refute this, I think it is incredibly unreasonable to suggest that the TWU will breach the contract without any sorta extension from the company.  It's not like I'm saying anything that AH doesn't already know.

 

[Kev3188]

I think you're assuming that we live in France or Germany where the labor movement is extremely feared. Did the industry walk out during PATCO? We could go into a huge multitude of reasons why the labor movement is where it is in the US today but that would take a few volumes.

We could, but everyone here knows the answers.

The better question is why do we continue to go against our best interests?

I was asked a question and stated the answer for you. But if you can marshal thousands and thousands to stand behind us and damn the consequences, let's go!!!! Otherwise I gave you an honest answer whether you can accept that or not. At least I'm not blowing smoke up your.

It's not just about me. How 'bout we all work together to turn this ship around?

Sure, you gave an honest answer to my (rhetorical) question. I can appreciate that. What I can't abide is this undercurrent of defeat I keep seeing. I'm not trying to bust balls- it's not just you- but it's a mindset that needs to change.

 

[700UW]

US can sue all they want, not filing an SCS is a minor dispute, its not a breach of contract, its a CBA violation and will be remanded to the grievance procedure, just like the airbus.
 
US is not harmed by a non filing of the SCS.
 
It doesnt effect the status quo under the RLA and that is all that matters.
 
Educate yourself Tim, you are not dealing with contract law, you are dealing with the RLA and CBAs and how issues are resolved.
 

The purpose of mediation under the Railway Labor Act is to foster the prompt and orderly resolution of collective bargaining disputes in the railroad and airline industries. These disputes, referred to as "major" disputes, involve the establishment or revision of rates of pay, rules, or working conditions. The parties should attempt to resolve collective bargaining disputes through direct negotiations. Failing that, either party may request the Board's services or the Board may involve itself on its own initiative. In its mediatory role, the Board may employ a variety of methods, including traditional mediation, interest-based problem solving, or facilitation. The Board views the objective of mediation as assistance to the parties in achieving agreement and sees the role of the mediator as an active participant in the process as a key to that assistance.
 

 

The RLA categorizes all labor disputes as either "major" disputes, which concern the making or modification of the collective bargaining agreement between the parties, or "minor" disputes, which involve the interpretation or application of collective bargaining agreements. Unions can strike over major disputes only after they have exhausted the RLA's "almost interminable" negotiation and mediation procedures. They cannot, on the other hand, strike over minor disputes, either during the arbitration procedures or after an award is issued.
 

 

The federal courts have the power to enjoin a strike over a major dispute if the union has not exhausted the RLA's negotiation and mediation procedures. The Norris-LaGuardia Act dictates the procedures that the court must follow. Once the NMB releases the parties from mediation, however, they retain the power to engage in strikes or lockouts, even if they subsequently resume negotiations or the NMB offers mediation again.
 
The federal courts likewise have the power to enjoin a union from striking over arbitrable disputes. The court may, on the other hand, also require the employer to restore the status quo as a condition of any injunctive relief against a strike.
 

 

[mike33]

AH sees the hour glass. Nobody forced the iam to put a durational cap on stand alone talks but my hunchis that the twu wouldnt gave agreed to the association without it.

AH is only concerned with the outstanding release determination. The current position is utilizing the greatest amount of leverage, and a release would enhance it even if a strike wasnt authorized. The problem is the clock that AH is counting on. Something is going to give.

Considering that the BK court was involved in approving all the aspects of exiting, including the MOU, this SCS may take on a whole new leverage unlike if it was part of just another CBA / Merger. It may be claimed as a really big deal by the company unlike a minor dispute.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Considering that the BK court was involved in approving all the aspects of exiting, including the MOU, this SCS may take on a whole new leverage unlike if it was part of just another CBA / Merger. It may be claimed as a really big deal by the company unlike a minor dispute.

700 may be right about it finally being viewed as a minor dispute if a breach of the MOU happens. 
 
The MOU was simple, i.e., SCS for 4.3%.   That's fairly major since it involves pay and involves a monster business transaction. But 700 may be right in that a judge may rule any such breach by the TWU a minor dispute, sorta like the change of control.  An unlikely play by AH would be to just abolish the 4.3% gonig forward and piss off TWU members and put heat on the Association but I think such a thing is unlikely since it would blow up in the media and cause thousands of employees to be pissed off.  But I do think management's argument will be a major dispute.  Again, 700 may have something though but I'm leary of judges, especially DC ones or Arizona ones.  Not sure where the company would have to file though. 
 
In  a perfect world,  the TWU can breach the MOU, and AH has to handle this as a minor dispute and if he's lucky he will get it heard in less than 6 months. But the risk to the TWU is substantial, and they aren't even the group talking strike, so it makes little sense to me that we should expect a gambit by the TWU for the sake of IAM members and for the risk of a substantial fine. 
 
Sit back and watch because whatever me and you talk about, the movie is going to start by July 3 unless there is a prior agreement signed between now and then.

 

[roabilly]

700...
 
How long did it take the Airbus case to grind its way through the system to a final ruling?
 
To address the difference between SOC and SCS, correct me if I’m wrong...
 
SOC = “Single Operating Certificate” -- Granted by the Government (FAA)
The SOC goes beyond any current status as a legally merged entity (Formulation of the Holding Company known as AAL on the NASDAQ); it signals that the two companies are legally able to operate as one airline. This means that the airline would have the flexibility to schedule planes and routes across the two carriers, and the unified airline would operate within a single carrier code.
 
SCS = "Single Carrier Status"—Granted by the Government (NMB)
The union(s) will petition the National Mediation Board (NMB) for this step. Once granted, this allows the combined carriers to operate with the FULL realization of the intended synergies from the merger. (1.5 billion US dollars annually as projected)
 
I think the question was, does the formulation of the Holding Company (AAL) legally signal a consummated merged entity for the purposes of arguing the “wholly owned subsidiary” language...

 

[700UW]

Since the IAM filed a lawsuit for a TRO in a Federal Court in PIT and won, the work had to be stopped except for the one plane that was all ready in check.
 
US appealed it and won the TRO was removed the case was remanded to the grievance procedure and it went straight to arbitration.
 
October of 2003 is when the IAM won the TRO.
 
The Arbitration was won in October of 2004, so from start to finish it took one year.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Our NC has made it very clear that they have 6 things that are its bottom offer, including sAA pay scale.  And they made it very clear that there is no further compromise and that we are at an impasse and need to prepare to strike.
 
But what do you think AH actions will be?  Going into the March negotiations, I think all of us have said we fully support the NC current position, but I'm curious as to what you all think AH position will be in March negotiations??
 
To be fair, my opinion is that AH will tweak up his proposal just to show movement and to further delay a release. As best I understand, his current proposal was for $21 and change, but no further improvements. I'd say, he keeps the wage the same but maybe tweaks one of the remaining 5 issues, perhaps IAM pension up another dime, dunno. 
 
As you can see, I don't expect much movement. IMO, we can't give in to those 6 things and if a release is granted, perhaps we even ask for more.  But, even if there is no determination on a release, we lose nothing.  Now isn't the time to panic, as ograc coined, "lock and load"
 
AH isn't going to give an extra week vacation, sAA pay of $23,  extra holidays, full sick pay, extra IAMPF and more scope without a fight.   And I know the hubs may feel different but I would rather us focus on scope first and educate the members about how extra or enhanced scope will help all the other things in joint talks.  I say this with the full realization that I don't have any mouths to feed at this point in my life and that our younger members may have families and be focused on wage alone but it's better to have a solid foundation first because without scope, half of us can lose our jobs overnight if gas prices go through the roof.
 
I've seen it twice in my career and I'm still in a station that is the result of that.
 
So, what is CLT thinking?  PHL?  PHX?  Class 2 stations?    Am I and other non hub members way off base in this thinking or are the hubs with this thinking this time???

 

[700UW]

Moving off of one item doesnt mean they are negotiating in good faith, they have to move off of all the open items to reach a settlement, AH has an ego and he will lose again.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Moving off of one item doesnt mean they are negotiating in good faith, they have to move off of all the open items to reach a settlement, AH has an ego and he will lose again.

Absolutely agree but don't you think AH will show a bit of wiggle room and tweak something to show the NMB at least movement to help delay further?  Not too hopeful and with pickets being planned by our district after the march talks I don't think the NC is hopeful either.

 

[700UW]

This game has been going on for three years, the NMB has seen thru his games.
 
Its time to defecate or get off the pot all ready.
 
After three years, its not wiggle room, its time to settle and negotiate and agree to a full agreement, to AH its a game and the IAM and I would say the NMB should have had enough all ready and force his hand.

 

[mike33]

Absolutely agree but don't you think AH will show a bit of wiggle room and tweak something to show the NMB at least movement to help delay further?  Not too hopeful and with pickets being planned by our district after the march talks I don't think the NC is hopeful either.

Don't you think AH is in a little unchartered waters? After all i don't remember him being in legal until the first BK.  With no BK judge in his back pocket this time, maybe that is why Glass was brought in. A hardliner for sure.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Don't you think AH is in a little unchartered waters? After all i don't remember him being in legal until the first BK.  With no BK judge in his back pocket this time, maybe that is why Glass was brought in. A hardliner for sure.

Glass was brought in the last time they met face to face and asked for the IAM demands and said he wants a deal done.  He usually comes in at the end. Unfortunately, nothing since then. 
 
IMO, maybe they are waiting for our 6 demands to go down to 3 demands and just get a token pay raise. leaving the release and leverage at the door?  It's important for the NC to stick to focusing on a release instead of going lower again on our offer.   We must gain some scope in any situation though.

 

[necigrad]

IMO, maybe they are waiting for our 6 demands to go down to 3 demands and just get a token pay raise. leaving the release and leverage at the door?  It's important for the NC to stick to focusing on a release instead of going lower again on our offer.   We must gain some scope in any situation though.

If that's their plan, I have a simple solution.  The longer this drags out, the more I need in return.  The NC has stopped coming down, but in my opinion they now need to start going UP!  Going down or keeping the status quo benefits the company.  Tell them no more by adding 1% to the unions last proposal.