2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[Tim Nelson]

So Tim, the all mighty know it all, where did you get your Jurus Doctorate?

The profit sharing was given up for the 4.3 raise, nothing else.

Carry on!

 

[700UW]

Like I thought., no answer, your true colors speak for themselves.

 

[T5towbar]

Hold your cards ladies and gentlemen we have a winner! rockit2's post hits the nail on the head as to why the members at UA and US under DL 141 find themselves in this quicksand. "All of this and most guys are out there busting arse to make the airline better and all I want is a raise and can't get one". The personal mindset that rockit2 has revealed is unfortunately prevelant with the membership both at UA and US. This membership mindset allows inferior TAs to be ratified by the membership as we are witnessing at UA. A contract that allows almost unlimited outsourcing of union represented jobs and no limitations on part time work. Yet they got their raise in wages. This narrow minded mindset allows leadership to get elected that may or may not have the long term best interests' of the membership in mind. Additionally, when a member is apathetic, disengaged, uninformed and focused on one self centered issue; that member is easily persuaded. You can blame ex stock clerks, bankers, retirees, ramp agents with no seniority, no input from AGCs and lack of leadership all you want; the inescapable truth is the membership ratified the agreement and thus chose their destiny at UA. An educated and engaged membership is less likely to be mislead by both parties; the company and the union. The members at UA, with the endorsement of the union leadership team they elected and the NC, voted for the money and retro pay. Now they will live with the "cost neutral" consequences. Next up US Airways! Have we learned anything yet?

You hit the nail on the head!

A large price is being paid for the money received. Problem is that quite a bit of the membership (such as myself and others) didn't gain a thing behind this contract. Scope. What scope? And the crazy "protection dates"? The company hasn't even update the payroll to the new rates yet. All I got to see was good people gone and many of my friends downgraded and trying to get their hours. And gaps in the shifts where coverage is missing. Say what you will about Tim, but his videos that he put out there, along with social media swayed the informed and engaged. That and other things made up our minds in my hub. Especially after the Cargo revelations. That's really crappy. But the money and the lie of LOA #5 got the "Yes" vote. But the cost will be staggering........
No wonder there is no unity.

Ograc, you are right.
Now we will live with this.

All I can say is you guys don't make the same mistake we did.

 

[ograc]

You hit the nail on the head!

A large price is being paid for the money received. Problem is that quite a bit of the membership (such as myself and others) didn't gain a thing behind this contract. Scope. What scope? And the crazy "protection dates"? The company hasn't even update the payroll to the new rates yet. All I got to see was good people gone and many of my friends downgraded and trying to get their hours. And gaps in the shifts where coverage is missing. Say what you will about Tim, but his videos that he put out there, along with social media swayed the informed and engaged. That and other things made up our minds in my hub. Especially after the Cargo revelations. That's really crappy. But the money and the lie of LOA #5 got the "Yes" vote. But the cost will be staggering........
No wonder there is no unity.

Ograc, you are right.
Now we will live with this.

All I can say is you guys don't make the same mistake we did.

T5towar,
I, like you, have witnessed the carnage and adverse effects friends and co workers have endured as a result of a membership ratifing a hollow contract for the sake of hourly wage. I, like you, wonder how a union leadership team or NC can tentatively agree to and subsequently bring back a TA to the membership; an offer that sells out countless represented jobs. I agree.. I hope the current US NC, the DL leadership and it's members don't make the same mistake. Unfortunately, given past history, I'm not too optomistic. Until there is a change in direction... we will continue to witness a continual erosion of represented jobs and subsequent improvements in our working conditions. The change in mindset must first start on the membership level IMO. The membership needs to become more engaged and educated. The membership needs to start showing interest in the common good rather than self centered interests. Only then will leadership have to step up or step aside. When a membership is truly united they become a powerful force that must be recognized by their leadership and the company. Example: Those who cannot stand behind our armed forces are welcome to stand in front of our armed forces! 

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

The idea that what happened at UAL isn't relevant/Doesn't matter to US negotiations is flawed.
 
If UA gave 2 pounds of bubble gum and Teddy Bears to their ramp service employees, you can bet your arse you'd see Delta, AA and WN doling out 2 lbs of sweets and a stuffed animal to their ramp service people.
 
You don't think US (And now AA) management doesn't look at that heap of crap contract the IAM negotiated at UA and say "We need that here!!" They've already run the numbers, they know what they'll save if they flush the remainder of the spoke stations at the combined airline.
 
This business is monkey see, monkey do.To believe otherwise is whistling past the cemetery.Remember pre 9/11 all the legacies were hooking up with Dell or HP and getting PC's out to employees on the cheap? After AA did it, Delta did it and so on and so on.
 
A quiet forum on Airlineforums.com doesn't mean everyone at that airline is docile like a Stepford Wife, it means that people haven't found it/don't care or are on other social media outlets.On this site, since I came over from Planebusiness.com over ten years ago, the US and AA forums have always been the most active,bar none.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Like I thought., no answer, your true colors speak for themselves.

Nice edit of your post.  At any rate, it is still wrong. Did you even read the MOU?????   Stop lying to members is all that I ask.  Read the damn MOU please.  Part 3 talks about the wage increase.  Part 4 is SOLELY talking about the TWU obligation to file single carrier within 6 months AND to support it.  WHY DO WE HAVE TO DISCUSS THIS?  Do you think we are stupid idiiots? 
 
I haven't the time to post it tonight but if you insist on blowing smoke up everyone's arse instead of being honest [I admit that it's tough for you to be honest] then I'll attach the MOU for all to read.  My gloves are off.  Over the next two months, I'm going to open up a can of whoop arse on you punks who are lying and cheating the US AIRWAYS members now, just as you bums did at United.
 
Our membership is on a "witches hourglass' and you and Roabilly want to continue blowing smoke up everyone's arse that the TWU has no legal obligation to file a single carrier.  The very big risk is that you guys have not only failed to cover your bases [which means you guys are smoke blowing again] by taking care of some VERY BIG ITEMS FIRST, but in doing so, you risk IAM groups getting $0 just like at United.  STOP IT!   
 
If I am privileged enough to become an AGC elect, the first thing I will do is sit down with NH, MM and FO and other possible elects and go over a few things that should accelerate the ridiculous negotiations pace currently going on and obtain a fair agreement.  It's not all AH"s fault.  The IAM has NOT done its job in doing things that it itself controls. The IAM141 negotiation team is a joke and I say that because some very important items are left undone either because they are lazy, incompetent, or don't give a damn.  But whatever anybody says,  AH is watching the clock tick and fleet service may get squeezed for $0 if these clowns don't start working on the backup plan.  And I know for a fact that they haven't done their homework because things are left undone.

 

[roabilly]

The idea that what happened at UAL isn't relevant/Doesn't matter to US negotiations is flawed.
 
If UA gave 2 pounds of bubble gum and Teddy Bears to their ramp service employees, you can bet your arse you'd see Delta, AA and WN doling out 2 lbs of sweets and a stuffed animal to their ramp service people.
 
You don't think US (And now AA) management doesn't look at that heap of crap contract the IAM negotiated at UA and say "We need that here!!" They've already run the numbers, they know what they'll save if they flush the remainder of the spoke stations at the combined airline.
 
This business is monkey see, monkey do.To believe otherwise is whistling past the cemetery.Remember pre 9/11 all the legacies were hooking up with Dell or HP and getting PC's out to employees on the cheap? After AA did it, Delta did it and so on and so on.
 
A quiet forum on Airlineforums.com doesn't mean everyone at that airline is docile like a Stepford Wife, it means that people haven't found it/don't care or are on other social media outlets.On this site, since I came over from Planebusiness.com over ten years ago, the US and AA forums have always been the most active,bar none.

First, everyone here is adamantly aware of Industry Standards, Parity Formulas, and Corporate Competitive Peer Pressure...
 
Here is Nelson’s argument... a Transition Agreement at UA that 70% of the Membership voted YES on... is GOING... I repeat going (as in the future) to influence Section Six Negotiations at AA/US.
 
Now let’s break this down, the Transition Agreement at UA has been ratified, no turning back the clock on that. However, it was a Transition Agreement, NOT Section Six, and it was conducted AFTER a merger with CO in the wake of BK! Again... at AA/US it’s NOT a Transition Agreement... it is straight Section Six, conducted at the peak of corporate profits, PRIOR to a much needed Transition Agreement with the newly merged carriers.
 
Now, since Nelsons argument depends on something happening in the future to complete his prophecy, we are all expected to believe his crystal ball is correct, and vote him into an Officer’s position, so he can correct ALL of this BEFORE it even happens, and then he can somehow travel back into the past and re-negotiate scope at UA?!
 
WOW... that Nelson must really be blessed with some superhuman powers... or own a DeLorean with a flux-capacitor!
 
Now... to carry the” monkey see monkey do” analogy a little further... UA WILL enter Section Six at some point in the future, and they may very well base their strategy on what AA/US has achieved in the current 6 talks here. Since that fact can’t be ignored, and the current team has held steadfast in 6, they may very well have the ability to influence UA when they actually do enter Section Six talks...
 
Of course... just like Nelson’s argument... this all depends on events that have NOT YET HAPPENED!

 

[roabilly]

It all boils down to this... Vote for TIM, he is the only person with the intelligence, integrity, and wherewithal to change the Industry, and how that Industry interacts with Labor under the auspices of Government Regulations! I hope he does get elected, so everyone can see him fail to change anything!

 

[Kev3188]

Hang in their kev, we still have a shot to raise the bar again after joint talks conclude which could serve to give united leverage in their next talks and also serve as a model for non union employees to look positively on.

I sure hope so!
 
 

A large price is being paid for the money received.

^This^

Not only is it being paid now, it will continue to be paid for years to come. I think at lot of UA people are gonna learn the hard way that it is MUCH harder to get something back after it's been negotiated away.
 
 

The idea that what happened at UAL isn't relevant/Doesn't matter to US negotiations is flawed.
 
If UA gave 2 pounds of bubble gum and Teddy Bears to their ramp service employees, you can bet your arse you'd see Delta, AA and WN doling out 2 lbs of sweets and a stuffed animal to their ramp service people.
 
You don't think US (And now AA) management doesn't look at that heap of crap contract the IAM negotiated at UA and say "We need that here!!" They've already run the numbers, they know what they'll save if they flush the remainder of the spoke stations at the combined airline.
 
This business is monkey see, monkey do.To believe otherwise is whistling past the cemetery.Remember pre 9/11 all the legacies were hooking up with Dell or HP and getting PC's out to employees on the cheap? After AA did it, Delta did it and so on and so on.
 
A quiet forum on Airlineforums.com doesn't mean everyone at that airline is docile like a Stepford Wife, it means that people haven't found it/don't care or are on other social media outlets.On this site, since I came over from Planebusiness.com over ten years ago, the US and AA forums have always been the most active,bar none.

+1

Bingo. Well said.
 
 

First, everyone here is adamantly aware of Industry Standards, Parity Formulas, and Corporate Competitive Peer Pressure...

Maybe, but then we also see a ton of "I work at US, I don't care what happens at XXX" type posts that say otherwise...
 

Here is Nelson’s argument... a Transition Agreement at UA that 70% of the Membership voted YES on... is GOING... I repeat going (as in the future) to influence Section Six Negotiations at AA/US.

It may not influence PRez & co., but I can assure you it's influencing the people on the other side of the table. The downward pressure on those guys has only increased.

 

[737823]

Obviously your pay, work rules, and other benefits are influenced by the market and what other carriers are offering in the comprehensive package but does anyone else agree that if the scope set in the current US fleet and former UA Ramp and PCE agreements was considered viable when UA and US were in bankruptcy years ago there is no reason it can't be viable in its current form or improved upon? I mean seriously, a bankruptcy judge ruled that this scope wasn't onerous to the companies as they were on the brink of insolvency and now the industry has rebounded is more stable and is generating record profits and shareholder returns. Seems the NC at UA didn't capitalize on that.

Josh

 

[Tim Nelson]

First, everyone here is adamantly aware of Industry Standards, Parity Formulas, and Corporate Competitive Peer Pressure...
 
Here is Nelson’s argument... a Transition Agreement at UA that 70% of the Membership voted YES on... is GOING... I repeat going (as in the future) to influence Section Six Negotiations at AA/US.
 
Now let’s break this down, the Transition Agreement at UA has been ratified, no turning back the clock on that. However, it was a Transition Agreement, NOT Section Six, and it was conducted AFTER a merger with CO in the wake of BK! Again... at AA/US it’s NOT a Transition Agreement... it is straight Section Six, conducted at the peak of corporate profits, PRIOR to a much needed Transition Agreement with the newly merged carriers.
 
Now, since Nelsons argument depends on something happening in the future to complete his prophecy, we are all expected to believe his crystal ball is correct, and vote him into an Officer’s position, so he can correct ALL of this BEFORE it even happens, and then he can somehow travel back into the past and re-negotiate scope at UA?!
 
WOW... that Nelson must really be blessed with some superhuman powers... or own a DeLorean with a flux-capacitor!
 
Now... to carry the” monkey see monkey do” analogy a little further... UA WILL enter Section Six at some point in the future, and they may very well base their strategy on what AA/US has achieved in the current 6 talks here. Since that fact can’t be ignored, and the current team has held steadfast in 6, they may very well have the ability to influence UA when they actually do enter Section Six talks...
 
Of course... just like Nelson’s argument... this all depends on events that have NOT YET HAPPENED!

Can I call you by your real name or do you prefer hiding still?
 
At any rate, Mr Roabilly,  Your unreferenced opinion and daily rants of "Get Nelson" do the members no service.  Your above rant has no references to speak of and you offer up such babble as "Crystal Balls" and "Prophesy".
 
I will give you intellectual credit and assume you aren't really that stupid and are just betraying the membership.  Your constant lie that the TWU doesn't have to file a single carrier certificate holds no weight in an intellectual discussion.  I have continually referenced the MOU where AH gave the TWU a 4.3% wage increase and in return, the TWU contractually obligated itself to filing for single carrier within 6 months.  That isn't a crystal ball.  Those are called contractual obligations.  To refute this,  you and 700 say that there is no obligation [even though it is in black and white] and if there were an obligation then the TWU will rise up and flip off AH and breach its obligation. 
 
While I can't refute your far reaching conclusion, just like I can't disprove the existence of the flying spaghetti monster,  it is entirely unlikely that the TWU will subject itself to millions and millions of dollars of fines and intentionally breach its contract, especially for the sake of IAM members. And this isn't a knock on the TWU.
 
The only crystal ball is the one you are using by scrambling with really dopey scenarios that have the TWU flipping off AH and violating its contract.
 
The reality of the situation remains, i.e., we are up against a clock and our District leaders are playing games by blowing smoke up folks arses.  Single carrier certificate will be filed within 6 months and this will trigger an investigation by the NMB which is separate from negotiations and will most likely lead to a decision of single carrier by no later than September.  That's a reality that you and your boys have denied to further their political agendas.
 
Further, the lack of a back up plan if there is no release is a clear indicator that our members are being stroked. There are a few 'startling' things that our NC has failed to do to cover its bases in the event of no release. Because of that, there is a great risk of the US AIRWAYS members to obtain $0 instead of a fair contract. 

 

[Tim Nelson]

It all boils down to this... Vote for TIM, he is the only person with the intelligence, integrity, and wherewithal to change the Industry, and how that Industry interacts with Labor under the auspices of Government Regulations! I hope he does get elected, so everyone can see him fail to change anything!

If you ever got me out of your eyesight, then maybe you would see the BIG PICTURE.  Unfortunately, you turn everything into a rant entitled "Get Nelson".  Can you not have an intelligent discussion or do you have to revert to subjective foolishness to cover your continual lies?
 
Let me remind the audience of your position.
1. The TWU doesn't have to file an application within 6 months, Nelson is just babbling.
2. We are in a vacuum and AH will not use the United agreement against us.
3.  Delta organizing has nothing to do with IAM contracts because Delta isn't United.
4. I won't comment on the United contract because this is US AIRWAYS.
 
The reality of the situation is that you necessarily must say all of the 4 lies above because you have pledged your unconditional 100% support for candidates that endorsed the United contract from their eboard position.  So, you must discount the United contract and wish it away.  And regarding US AIRWAYS, you have to insist that I am lying and that the TWU will breach its contract, if you want to support the lies of the NC who continually blow smoke up our members arse that the TWU is under no such obligation.  In doing so, you must refuse to recognize the MOU and talk in fairy tales.
 
You, Mr Roabilly, are destroying our craft with your iies.  The chamber of commerce itself couldn't do as much damage to our craft as your boys did at United and are attempting to do here.  It's a true shame for any future organizing efforts at Delta as well.  Thank yourself

 

[Tim Nelson]

Obviously your pay, work rules, and other benefits are influenced by the market and what other carriers are offering in the comprehensive package but does anyone else agree that if the scope set in the current US fleet and former UA Ramp and PCE agreements was considered viable when UA and US were in bankruptcy years ago there is no reason it can't be viable in its current form or improved upon? I mean seriously, a bankruptcy judge ruled that this scope wasn't onerous to the companies as they were on the brink of insolvency and now the industry has rebounded is more stable and is generating record profits and shareholder returns. Seems the NC at UA didn't capitalize on that.

Josh

Everyone who is non political knows that the United contract blows and it also influences other talks in this craft.  The clowns who are denying this, only do so because if they admitted the obvious then there is no reason to vote for the clowns who endorsed that dreadful job killing United contract. 

 

[roabilly]

Can I call you by your real name or do you prefer hiding still?
 
At any rate, Mr Roabilly,  Your unreferenced opinion and daily rants of "Get Nelson" do the members no service.  Your above rant has no references to speak of and you offer up such babble as "Crystal Balls" and "Prophesy".
 
I will give you intellectual credit and assume you aren't really that stupid and are just betraying the membership.  Your constant lie that the TWU doesn't have to file a single carrier certificate holds no weight in an intellectual discussion.  I have continually referenced the MOU where AH gave the TWU a 4.3% wage increase and in return, the TWU contractually obligated itself to filing for single carrier within 6 months.  That isn't a crystal ball.  Those are called contractual obligations.  To refute this,  you and 700 say that there is no obligation [even though it is in black and white] and if there were an obligation then the TWU will rise up and flip off AH and breach its obligation. 
 
While I can't refute your far reaching conclusion, just like I can't disprove the existence of the flying spaghetti monster,  it is entirely unlikely that the TWU will subject itself to millions and millions of dollars of fines and intentionally breach its contract, especially for the sake of IAM members. And this isn't a knock on the TWU.
 
The only crystal ball is the one you are using by scrambling with really dopey scenarios that have the TWU flipping off AH and violating its contract.
 
The reality of the situation remains, i.e., we are up against a clock and our District leaders are playing games by blowing smoke up folks arses.  Single carrier certificate will be filed within 6 months and this will trigger an investigation by the NMB which is separate from negotiations and will most likely lead to a decision of single carrier by no later than September.  That's a reality that you and your boys have denied to further their political agendas.
 
Further, the lack of a back up plan if there is no release is a clear indicator that our members are being stroked. There are a few 'startling' things that our NC has failed to do to cover its bases in the event of no release. Because of that, there is a great risk of the US AIRWAYS members to obtain $0 instead of a fair contract. 

So... if I vote for you in June you will do what?
 
Re-negotiate the TWU MOU?
 
Reverse everything that has transpired after 9/11 and all the Bankruptcies?
 
Change the Railway Labor Act to favor Labor?
 
Tell me what your plans are...

 

[Tim Nelson]

So... if I vote for you in June you will do what?
 
Re-negotiate the TWU MOU?
 
Reverse everything that has transpired after 9/11 and all the Bankruptcies?
 
Change the Railway Labor Act to favor Labor?
 
Tell me what your plans are...

Be honest with the members.  And do two big things that our NC refuses to do that NEED to be done to build whatever leverage is left and then rapidly conclude these talks with a fair agreement to be presented to the membership.  The alternative is the insanity I now hear and the lies about the MOU.  The more folks I can make aware of the MOU, the more educated our members will be and the more they will realize our eboard has been blowing smoke up their collective arses. 
 
For the audience, kindly review the MOU. If someone has a link or can copy and paste it in this forum then much appreciated. Otherwise, i'll have to type if word for word.