2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[AANOTOK]

700, is it typical for a grievance to take five years to settle??

 

[roabilly]

Cltrat is right.  You used to post clear thinking and reasonable things a few years back but your "Get Nelson" campaign has blown up this forum and reduced the page down to your Barbie tantrums.

700, WeAAsles, and Ograc, are right.  You used to post clear thinking and reasonable things a few years back but your "Get the IAM" campaign has blown up this forum and reduced the page down to your Barbie tantrums.

 

[700UW]

No.
 
Arbitration cases on minor disputes usually take two to three years to be heard and decided.
 
There are cases like the airbus outsourcing from start to finish took one year, and that was including the court system.
 
US has one labor relations department, they handle all contract negotiations for ALL labor groups and the grievances.

So the Pilots, Flight Attendants, Mechanic and Related, Maintenance Instructors, Fleet Service, Flight Attendants, Dispatchers and CSA and Res all fall under the same company reps.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Guess you dont know that when the members arent satisfied with their representation they can and have changed their representatives many times.
 
Its not true, you have no idea of what it is like in airline labor relations under the RLA.
 
You dont see the dragged out negotiations under the NLRA.

As far as negotiations,  one of the inherent problems of the IAM [and I'm not busting on the IAM as I like its structure more than any other union] is that the IAM routinely goes for 2 or 3 year contracts in this industry due to having elections every two years.  Even during the present negotiations, AH notified the NMB that he offered a 5 year duration for a contract but the IAM refused and wanted to once again take the two year plan. 
 
Airlines want longer contracts to reduce risk.  Going through a merger, God only knows how long and how drawn out joint talks would be, so the TWU took the 5 year contract.  IMO, I think that was wise and won't leave them hungry going through joint talks.  OTOH,  our nitwits decided on the two year plan due to politics once again because having a 5 year contract does away with the fear of changing negotiation teams during elections. 
 
The problem with the 2 year contracts is that the RLA does have a long process.  IAM members go hungry and starve whereas some other unions actually negotiate contracts before their contract expires.  And since our negotiation team isn't negotiating retro, that feeds AH to delay negotiations longer.   Most unions recognize that and negotiate longer term contracts as the RLA forces that.  But the IAM, due to these elections every two years, has the mini contracts.  IMO, that blows. 
 
That brings me to a question that I simply don't have the answer to,  can we have votes on AGC's every 4 years instead of staggering them every two years?  Seems more appropriate.

 

[700UW]

Two to three year CBAs?
 
I have never worked under a CBA that was less than a five years when it has become amendable, only one that was three years was the Transition Agreement after the US/HP merger.
 
There you go again, with insults.
 
You lack any credibility when you attack, insult and name call people that have a different opinion than yourself.
 
I would love to see you debate your opponents, you would lose in a land slide.
 
The only reason the IAM is seeking a two year bridge agreement is they know as soon as a section 6 is ratified, they will go into JCBA negotiations.
 
The reason elections are staggered is that you dont elect a slate of people that werent involved and what was going on in the District.

 

[737823]

The IAM is happy kicking the can down the road, Bob has posted that and they sat on their hands for the past two years:

Well its not like they were going anywhere. IAM pretty much sat on their hands for over a year before they filed to be released, they filed, then what? Nothing. No picketing, not even at the NMB to let it be known they are serious. AMFA filed during similar conditions at NWA, they ended up with the biggest increases ever seen and all mechanics benefitted from that. Yes the recession, 9-11 and BK gave NWA and the other unions the opportunity to make an example of them by setting out to bust AMFA, no matter the cost, before they spread through the rest of the industry, but the fact is that every mechanic in the industry benefitted by what happened at NWA from 1999 through 2001 and to this day we are still better off. Our wages today are higher in absolute dollars (not when adjusted for inflation) than they were prior to 2001 but for many of our coworkers that is not the case such as Fleet service and Stores.

So while I would fault the IBT for other things filing for an election at US when the IAM continues to sit on their hands in negotiations isnt one of them. The IAM claims this will extend negotiations, well, after seeing the crumbs they were asking for, and the fact they were not making progress even with that, taking a little longer to get where you want to be may be a better option than throwing the IAM even more time to get you where you dont really want to be.Why should they be willing to settle for what the UAL guys , who are in negotiations, are getting now? They need a union that will at least try and raise the bar, not just ride the coat tails of United mechanics.

Sadly I still think the filing at US was really more about getting cards at AA. Maybe the IBT should be a little more aggressive at UAL, then they would not have to rely on deception in order to get more mechanics to want to become Teamsters. The thing about deception is eventually the truth comes out, the guys who told the lies will be long gone, telling lies to their next assignment, but we will have to live with the results.

So, while having Rival Unions court members from other unions may not be in the best interests of people who have positions in the Unions that are being raided ,despite what these leaders say, its good for Union members and the labor movement as a whole. It brings accountablity to the unaccountable, but care must be taken if a choice to move is made that you dont get lured into a relationship based on lies, lies from different people are still lies.

Josh

 

[Tim Nelson]

Unions dont make laws nor write them.
 
Go educate yourself on the RLA and its history.
 
The main purpose of the RLA and its even stated is to prevent the stoppage of interstate commerce.
 
Unions werent recognized in the railroads until the RLA became law.
 
That is why the union fought to change the voting process and was successful, just as the airlines were successful in raising the % of card needed to be signed to call for an election.
 
You are really a piece of work.

Of course unions are counted on to be a part of the law making process.  They worked out the new voting process just in time for the Delta vote.  Unfortunately they lost the vote and then had to slash our IAMPF benefits 3 days late on December 13, 2010.

 

[Tim Nelson]

The IAM is happy kicking the can down the road, Bob has posted that and they sat on their hands for the past two years:


Josh

Bob is one of the most knowledgeable TWU members I know of and has an independent mind.  Perhaps one of the biggest images within the TWU.  Our negotiation team is trying to make it look like the NMB is obligated to negotiate and hammer the company.  That simply isn't the case.  Bob is right, for a few years now all the IAM has done is blabbed its mouth about how the NMB is going to "Fix AH".  Not one single benefit has been discussed.  A few proposals have been handed out but nothing negotiated regarding medical and other items. I seriously doubt that our NC even enters the negotiation room.  Delaney almost never allowed the United NC in the room.  I was there in the same building they negotiated and the NC would sit around in the conference room going over their fantasy football picks as Delaney was supposedly negotiating in the room on the other side of the building. 
 
The real problem in this negotiation setting is that the IAM will most certainly enter joint talks with $0 if we allow these clowns to continue stupid. They just kick the can down the road and members go hungry.
They did it at United and will do it again here if we mindlessly put these guys back in office.  How does the saying go, "Fool me once......"
 
Thankfully, it doesn't appear to be a shame on us thing as the membership indicated in February that it will finally exterminate 6 years of nothingness.

 

[Tim Nelson]

You guys ought to go over the FB pages and see how Klemm and Bartz and other Delaney team members talked real big about getting a stand alone contract first then going into joint talks.  Then they sang a different song after elections and said,
 
"The company advised us that there would be more on the table if we agree to joint talks, and we forced the company to agree to accelerated talks to move these talks to a conclusion." 
 
The membership bought that bull #### hands down.  But 3 years later......the company broke its verbal promise, accelerated talks were a complete failure as I promised it would be, announced layoffs and hammered our members with a terrible contract.  One candidate on Delaney's ticket even said last week that we should blame the company for lying.  WHY?  Why blame the company when our union leadership agreed to listen to verbal promises?  Management does what management does.....it is out to reduce cost so why listen to verbal agreements? 
 
Same thing will happen here.  Stomp feet and blast the RLA,  blast the NMB for not issuing a impasse, blast the opposition.... all to keep sitting on their hands and do nothing.   It doesn't take a rocket scientist or even much knowledge about the legal process to realize that something is wrong.  Why?  Because their plan all along is to toss our group into joint talks and then blow smoke up your asses, presumably with some stupid LOA, where Parker agrees to expedite joint talks to conclude negotiations.  It's coming unless there is change!   First, you should know that the single carrier application is also coming by July.  It's in the agreement and it's non negotiable.

 

[700UW]

The IAM is happy kicking the can down the road, Bob has posted that and they sat on their hands for the past two years:


Josh

Irrelvant Bob is not an IAM member and he isnt involved in the US negotiations and hasnt been for three years.
 
And Bob ushered in concessions when he was part of the NC in 2003 when AA wasnt in bankruptcy and they negotiated for over fours years and didnt get a new CBA and then AA went chapter 11.

He is a god unionist, but he lives in a glass house, and you and Bob have something in common Tim Nelson, he was also removed as an officer of his local before and is a closet AMFA supporter, and yes he posts under another screen name so when he cant attack the TWU he uses his alter ego.
 
Oh you mean the guy you keep quoting and I showed you how you have been qouting him wrong?
 
Remember this?
 
 

Bob Owens posting April 14, 2011 to United Mechanics
 
“When do you guys get your ballots?
 
By the way I heard that the IBT was telling you guys that the TWU is only asking for $39/hr at AA and
only 1% would be getting that. Well that's not true.
 
Guys in high cost cities working nights with 20 years would be topping out at $43.96,(all in-but not CC) the majority, guys in low cost cities working days would be getting $39.83. CC premium would be an addition $2.75 on top of those figures, so a CC on nights in NY or California would be $46.71.
 
It’s all available at aa.twu.org, Compensation is Article 4. Article 47 has language that we borrowed and
modified from USAIR as far as extended negotiations. Automatic 3% after six months past amendable date and 3% every six months thereafter.
 
We can’t allow these airlines to jam concessions down our throats in a few months then drag out real
negotiations for years and not give retro, with the NMB allowing talks to drag out on average 3 or more
years we have to put in language to protect ourselves. The "thereafter" would be "industry leading", that was the first time those two words were spoken in nearly four years of negotiations!!
 
I know that we at AA have the reputation of being the industry leader in concessions, all the way back to the first to accept B-scale in 1983 but some of us are trying to change that and we need your help.
 

 

[Tim Nelson]

Do you sit up at night thinking up these crazy conspiracy ideas you post?
 
Why dont you actually prove what you post or even better try and build solidarity instead of dividing the house.
 
With each of your posts it seems you are AH boy and preaching divide and conquer.
 
You would think after 20 years of your power quest you would learn you do more harm than good, and the company reads these boards, trust me I know, it was told to us by Dave Siegel who had a screen name here, Bruce Ashby, Chris Chiames, Gerry Glass and Al Hemenway all had/have screen names and read the board regularly, Al and I went around and around on here many times and Pitbull and GG have had the same.
 
And there you go again with your lies, what great pain will the TWU suffer at the hands of an arbiter?
 
You sound like Chip Munn now, "pain", give a rest, you really need to seek some help.
 
So the members are "idiots" now?
 
Boy you are sure gathering lots of votes and supports by insulting the members by name calling, who wants someone like that representing them against the company and lawyers, you would be the laughing stock of the IAM if ever elected.
 
And even if a SCS is filed it doesnt start JCBA process, here are some examples, at UA and CO SCS was granted and the IBT for M&R still negotiated two separate Section 6 CBA for PMUA and PMCO and the same happened for the FA sat PMCO and PMUA, SCS granted and two separate Section 6 CBAs negotiated and ratified.
 
Dont let the facts get in your way.

Hell no!  I don't post this stuff for votes, I lose votes with my postings.  It's much easier to sit back and just kiss babies and shake hands.  But these contract proceedings affect me so I'm not going to sit back and listen to all of the Bull **** and omitted information to position the membership to get F.   Of course, section 6 can continue after joint but you have to look at other unions [like you did with the IBT] that took that path.  The IAM consistently has refused to take that path.  Actually, change will give us hope that we stay in section 6. Certainly nobody on the eboard now will stand up to Delaney. 
 
You guys continually disappoint.  The TWU or its agent WILL file single carrier.  The NMB WILL RULE ON IT.  Those are facts. Now what is plan B or are you going to continue telling folks that the NMB is being a D since it hasn't ruled on even an impasse?  Most folks say that the NMB isn't even close to an impasse on these groups, so why don't you guys stop already with building everything up to a letdown every two months blabbing your mouths how the NMB is expected to issue a release????
 
Focus on Plan B and DO YOUR JOBS!  Stop punting to the NMB mindlessly and stop complaining that the RLA, the NMB,  Nelson, and everyone else is the problem.  Sheesh!

 

[737823]

Back on Topic.

If the IAM really is upset that US is not negotiating with them how come they have not asked the NMB for a release?

When we met with USAIR management back in July their COO pretty much said that the IAM was OK with just kicking the can down the road. The fact that they have not even asked to be released supports what the COO said.

Josh

 

[700UW]

Avoid, Deflect, Divide, that should be your campaign motto.
 
You conveniently avoid reality, facts and history.
 
Like I said Tim, its always been about you and your quest for power, AGW, FSWU, your own track record speaks for itself.
 
You said the union has no Plan B, back it up.

You said the TWU will file or face Bankruptcy and Pain, prove it.

 

[700UW]

Josh

They did in May of 2013.

Dont let the facts get in your way.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Avoid, Deflect, Divide, that should be your campaign motto.
 
You conveniently avoid reality, facts and history.
 
Like I said Tim, its always been about you and your quest for power, AGW, FSWU, your own track record speaks for itself.
 
You said the union has no Plan B, back it up.
You said the TWU will file or face Bankruptcy and Pain, prove it.

Of course my track record speaks for itself.  I'm proud of it actually. That's why the IAM hired me in 2008.   If I was so bad for being a member in bad standing due to the AGW then the IAM simply wouldn't have hired me and given me a large control over critical organizing campaigns.
 
Plan B?  Well, I guess you got me there as it would be very hard for me to bring evidence for something that doesn't exist.
 
I can't prove that the TWU will want to go bankrupt by violating its contract and triggering AH to file a lawsuit claiming damages, but I also can't prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist.  But I think it is safe to say that it doesn't make 'good sense' to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and it doesn't make good sense to believe that the TWU will intentionally violate its agreement only to have AH demand 'severe financial damages'.
 
I know in your world of wonderland, you want folks to believe that the TWU will intentionally violate its contract, then an arbitrator will rule that it did no damages to the synergies of the merger. 
 
The reality of the situation is quite different.  The TWU will NOT violate its contract, but if it did, AH will MOST DEFINATELY seek severe damages.   Although the onus will be upon AH to prove it,  I think he would have a helluva case.
 
Get out of wonderland  700.  Because your rabbit hole is going deeper and deeper.  You know what they say about starting one lie?  The lie grows, and your lies are really out of control. Sheesh!