2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[WeAAsles]

You guys dont get it.
 
The only pressure the unions and its members can do is work safe, and use the media.

Absolutely. And start paying more attention to try to get laws against us changed.
 
The AFA and CWA were quite successful in using a non-binding strike vote to get US to the table in chapter 11 part 2.
 
We lived it, have you?
 
It shows strength and solidarity to the company and hopefully upsets Wall Street and future bookings, thats what it takes to get a fair CBA in the industry, been going on in my 20 years at US.

Future bookings are only affected when the passengers have multiple options. Not enough seats out there today to give them a choice.
 
And I am telling him the history of what has happened at US, AA was in financial mess during your talks, US is making money and has been for years and wont pass it on to the very same employees who earn that money for US.

Your airline was not making the RASM's to support decent wages. One downturn would have crucified them. Why do you think there call sign was LCC (Low Cost Carrier) Those dynamics have absolutely changed with the merger and gains to our contracts should be expected.
 
He is chicken little, let the US and the IAM handle their issues instead of chicken little coming over here and telling whats gonna happen, dont do this, dont do that.

I don't consider someone telling you their story and giving opinions to be a chicken. I consider that learning from any and all available sources. Especially when someone has some first hand knowledge.
 
This is the IAM and US, he isnt either and let them decide their futures and their CBA, not someone who wont be effected by it.

We absolutely are and will be affected by whatever decisions you guys make. To think otherwise tells me you haven't read our contract and what comes in September of 2015.
 
US' employees have been under basically Chapter 11 CBAs since 2002, its time make some gains and be respected.

Respect is an emotional word that has no meaning and does not put money in your pocket. Who cares who respects me as long as I get paid. And we have been living under concessions since 2003. Some of you only see that we make $2.00 per hour more than you. Go read the entire contract before and after the bankruptcy.
 
Doug and Al slapped his own employees in the face by agreeing to MOUs with AA and its employees giving them increases while he spit in the face of his own employees.

They did that to try and take over AA not because they did or didn't respect you. They knew what happened when they went after Delta and needed our assistance to make the merger happen. Nothing more, nothing less. 
 
The NMB doesnt give a crap about Wall Street and stock prices, yet he is trying to throw out some much garbage and see what sticks.

That's crazy to think big money people have no influence behind the scenes. Of course they do.
 
He doesnt have a vote in the matter, so let the US employees decide their future.

Your future determines our future.
 
And I guess some of you dont realize the better CBA the three IAM represented groups get at US means a better JCBA contract for both US and AA.

Oh no. That one we realize all too well. Maybe if you weren't being defensive you would see that we're all just trying to figure out the best way to get to that golden contract.

 

[700UW]

You do realize it took over eight years for a JCBA to be negotiated and ratified for the East and West employees to get under a JCBA and they were both AFA?
 
The Pilots mostly due to the arbitration are over nine years with no JCBA.
 
That is the state of labor (un)relations at US and three years on Section 6 for M&R, Fleet and MTS.
 
You need to get your own house in order before you add on to it.
 
Im sorry if you all dont like my tone and information, but enough is enough.

 

[WeAAsles]

I'm really torn on this idea of sharing the most recent company proposal with the members and taking a strike vote. I'm inclined to agree that sharing it with the membership would infuriate the masses. I'm also inclined to agree; an infuriated membership would most certainly produce a strong strike vote. Wheather it would have an impact on Wall Street or passengers booking elsewhere is debatable. One thing is certain; if the strike vote did start having an impact on one or the other or both we have gained leverage and the company may raise the urgency of getting to an agreement. If none of that happens NYer... what have we lost? As I see it... we're no worse off. Nothing ventured; nothing gained so tp speak.   

I've heard from too many leaders in my career who are afraid of the membership and what direction they might take. It's as if some leaders think the membership is their cattle or something. We are UNION. there comes a time when the membership has to make the decision. The only thing those of us who are involved and knowledgeable can do is try to guide them to make the right choice.

Look at the AE pilot group. There leaders said that they were not going to put the final proposal to a vote so the company said they are going to shut the airline down then. The members went ballistic and told those leaders that "You do not make that ultimate decision for me" Now it's in their hands as it should be.

IMO if you don't trust the members to go in your direction then you really don't trust yourself as a leader that you can lead them in the right direction.

 

[Tim Nelson]

 
You can have a 100% strike vote and it means NOTHING unless the NMB releases the parties and you yourself have made the argument that release isn't coming...so what's the point?
 
Spend the time trying to get the best deal instead of trying to apply pressure that you are not in control of applying. There is a reason EVERY contract since deregulation has been concessionary. We don't get together and change the laws that have fighting with our hands tied behind our backs. When that is realized, then we can progress for the long term....Until then, all we have is people yelling at each other, then pointing fingers at each other and we go through the same process every contract cycle.
 
The AA side went through this already. Making the same argument you make...Heck, we even had a newly elected President with a Democratically controlled Congress. It meant nothing.
 
In the spring of 2010 we turned down a TA because we felt the NMB would release us since it was a Labor friendly Administration. Didn't happen, quite the opposite. We were put on ice for more of the mid-term elections and face a completely different scenario once we got back to the table. We overplayed our hand because he expected leverage. We turned down, what now seems like a pretty good deal.
 
In the PATCO case, the air traffic controllers overplayed their hands with President Reagan and that has created the current atmosphere that it's OK to permanently replace striking workers...In this quest to beat on your chests, I hope you tell your membership about that case and the NWA cases.
 
It is the goal to get a deal...but it needs to be the best deal possible. The NMB doesn't care about your cries of fairness, respect and any other descriptive words....They want a deal and they don't care who gets the best side of it.

That certainly isn't true.  A great strike vote has much more value than just an external showing.    It also shows that the internal housekeeping matters at this airline are real and a real mess. Even without a release, management will need full cooperation to get this merger forward.  Now really isn't the time to make sure you piss off all your employees. A strike vote shows boiling points just like a thermometer.  Doesn't matter if it's a thing or a place, when things boil over, bad things happen.  Plus, management really does need to see the thermometer reading as well. 
 
Although a release is plan A, I'd really like things to move two fold and not be singly focused on a release that may never happen.  And, everything, including the strike vote, doesn't have to be tagged or associated with a release. I hope we get a release but can we afford to attach everything to a release that may not even happen and is completely out of our hands?  I don't think so.  Risky to solely focus everyone and everything on the image of a release when time will make that image fade. If there isn't a release in the next 3 months then it would be extremely difficult to imagine getting one after a single carrier application. 
 
We have to do a better job of getting that first bite leading to joint talks. Negotiating in polar opposites isn't the way.  This is what happens when the members are not allowed to be engaged.  We have to engage the members and talk about the reality of the situation.  Same thing happened at United where the IAM became the only union, who backed itself into a corner, and whose only way out of stand alone first bite talks was to enter joint talks with $0.  A very real possibility here as well if folks continue to put political gain over the interest of the members.

 

[WeAAsles]

You do realize it took over eight years for a JCBA to be negotiated and ratified for the East and West employees to get under a JCBA and they were both AFA?
 
The Pilots mostly due to the arbitration are over nine years with no JCBA.
 
That is the state of labor (un)relations at US and three years on Section 6 for M&R, Fleet and MTS.
 
You need to get your own house in order before you add on to it.
 
Im sorry if you all dont like my tone and information, but enough is enough.

Have I said even once that you should shut down section 6 and go to JCBA talks? It seems like you think I'm alluding to that?

 

[Tim Nelson]

I'm really torn on this idea of sharing the most recent company proposal with the members and taking a strike vote. I'm inclined to agree that sharing it with the membership would infuriate the masses. I'm also inclined to agree; an infuriated membership would most certainly produce a strong strike vote. Wheather it would have an impact on Wall Street or passengers booking elsewhere is debatable. One thing is certain; if the strike vote did start having an impact on one or the other or both we have gained leverage and the company may raise the urgency of getting to an agreement. If none of that happens NYer... what have we lost? As I see it... we're no worse off. Nothing ventured; nothing gained so tp speak.   

Although you bring up wall street and external affects of a strike vote,  I see it as an image of within this house in an internal way between the employees and management. No doubt the external things may happen, and management can discount it publicly, but internally Parker won't be able to run from it since it's inside his house. This could become a real internal mess and this merger just got started.  Oh boy. 

 

[700UW]

Have I said even once that you should shut down section 6 and go to JCBA talks? It seems like you think I'm alluding to that?

I didnt say that or imply it.
 
I am giving you the history of how bad labor relations is at US and has been.
 
The same VP of Labor Relations is still here and the former EVP of Labor Relations is back as a consultant, the same two men who led the charge through both chapter 11 cases and led the negotiations for three rounds of concessions in two chapter 11 cases.
 
AH still thinks he is in chapter 11 and only wants a cost neutral CBA, the members deserve to get back their concessions and more.

 

[robbedagain]

you know what tim.. if it takes an internal mess and it makes the news  may be that what it will take for that f..ker  to make a deal with the IAM.   ENOUGH IS ENOUGH    Screw the ontime performance and all that til we get sect 6 contracts that are fair and equitable

 

[WeAAsles]

I didnt say that or imply it.
 
I am giving you the history of how bad labor relations is at US and has been.
 
The same VP of Labor Relations is still here and the former EVP of Labor Relations is back as a consultant, the same two men who led the charge through both chapter 11 cases and led the negotiations for three rounds of concessions in two chapter 11 cases.
 
AH still thinks he is in chapter 11 and only wants a cost neutral CBA, the members deserve to get back their concessions and more.

700 I know at the time you guys weren't paying attention to what we were going through from 03 till the BK. Same exact story. Horrible, horrible labor relations. We were essentially at war with management. One guy said he wants to get rid of all of us right to our leaders face and another guy called us "bricks in a backpack". The guy that wanted to get rid of us took a bullet in the stomach and we jumped up and down for joy calling it Karma.

Deserve doesn't mean squat to these people. The only thing they'll tell you is "you have a job" The word deserve is another word like respect that is an emotional word. The only thing those two words might get us is a box of tissues.

Our enemy only thinks in terms of business. If we really hope to be successful we need to think like them and stop spinning our wheels with the same old tired boring tactics and well read playbook.

 

[700UW]

Actually I was paying attention, but your concessions that you took in 2003 didnt even come close to what we went through in the 2002/2003 Chapter 11 and the 2004/2005 Chapter 11.
 
Right before X-Mas of 2002 Dr Bronner who ran the Retirement Systems of Alabama who provided DIP financing and bought US threatened to shut us down if we didnt take additional concessions.
 
The ink wasnt even dry on the second round of concessions in the first case and the violated our CBA by outsourcing the S-Check on the airbus narrow body.
 
We had our pension terminated in 2005, you didnt, you still gained seven more years in your DBP than we did.
 
The IAMNPF didnt start for M&R until 2008.
 
I lived it I was on the NC in 2004 and 2005 for the second chapter 11 case which our CBA was abrogated and 46% of the maintenance workforce was laid-off, that didnt happen to you over at AA.
 
We can say who did what or who got what, it doesnt solve the process.
 
You had it better at AA than we did at US for years, and now you make $2 an hour more than US employees and Doug doesnt want to even bring PMUS up to that.
 
You really dont get how bad it was over at US and still is, you just went through a little bit of what US has been going on since the early 90s.
 
We had INT, GSO, TPA hangars all closed, many stations closed, in TPA they came in and said get your stuff and get out, we are closing the hangar, no warning nothing.

 

[WeAAsles]

"We can say who did what or who got what, it doesn't solve the process."

Exactly. I don't really care about the house down the street from me. He can live in a Million dollar gated community for all I care. I just want to enjoy and be comfortable in my own house.

We're participating here because we have the "SAME" goals. The issue is trying to figure out the best way to get there? Think outside the box.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Let's see the 1% offer. It will be dragged through the streets with the proper explanations. What the hell is the NC waiting on, another two months of ice from the NMB? 
 
Hoping for a release is fine but how many times can Tiberi go in the press screaming in an "Elroy Jetson tantrum" and calling Parker names,  and maintain an audience?  Seems the media has already faded on this and doesn't really respect it. 
 
Has the NMB heard from the members? Nope.  Has the company heard from the members? Nope.  Has the media heard from the members? Nope.   Have the members been shown the proposals? Nope. Seems as if things have deteriorated to one big Barbie Tantrum between both parties without the members even having a say.
 
Can the members say something now???  They have been waiting.  The Union been saying that management has offered terrible proposals, management has said it has been negotiating fairly. Let's see that  proposal and stop the BS.  That 1% proposal can be used against management.

 

[700UW]

From what I have heard, they were told to wait on releasing any information until the company either accepts or rejects the final offer.

 

[700UW]

The best bet is someone like NYer to stop saying the NMB wont release, there is no need for a strike vote, he is playing right into GG and AH's hands of divide and conquer.
 
The only thing the IAM can do is push for the release, work safe and take a strike vote to show the company the members mean business.
 
Settle or strike.

 

[WeAAsles]

The best bet is someone like NYer to stop saying the NMB wont release, there is no need for a strike vote, he is playing right into GG and AH's hands of divide and conquer.
 
The only thing the IAM can do is push for the release, work safe and take a strike vote to show the company the members mean business.
 
Settle or strike.

No. What needs to be done is send that last POS offer the company gives you out for a vote with a firm NO recommendation. And you attach that a NO vote is an authorization to strike.

What NYer has said is irrelevant to whether management sees it or not. Assuming your enemy is stupid only makes you the fool. You have to be just as smart and informed as they are.

I can bet $1000 that that AH guy comes on here and reads every night. I would bet that Doug himself comes on here and reads. Well Doug has said publicly and loudly that the key to this enterprise being a success is going to be good labor relations right. Him and the other exec's are compensated through the rise of that stock and just like us they want to get paid. So how do you whack that pay and make him look like a fool at the same time?

You show EVERYONE by that vote that this enterprise has got a problem. You have faith in your members that they will go along with your battle cry. You give your members the loaded guns and send them forward. You do the exact opposite of what they want you to do!!!!