2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[700UW]

That's my point tell that to 700. The TWU did a better job protecting you guys than the IAM especially for fleet service. All the IAM has done is ushered in concessions across the industry that have far reaching effects.

I acknowledged for AA MIA, my local home airport and carrier of choice. I know all about Eulen America, their management, business practices, etc.

Josh

You are lying again.
 
Both IAM CBAs at US have better scope, holidays, OT, sick time, and pension.
 
The TWU ushered in concessions in 1983, and in 2003 when AA WASNT in bankruptcy.
 
Go educate yourself on Section 1113 C or you can keep lying and have ZERO credibility, the choice yours.

 

[WeAAsles]

That's my point tell that to 700. The TWU did a better job protecting you guys than the IAM especially for fleet service. All the IAM has done is ushered in concessions across the industry that have far reaching effects.

I acknowledged for AA MIA, my local home airport and carrier of choice. I know all about Eulen America, their management, business practices, etc.

Josh

AA had more money in the bank when they went to BK court and were able to fund there own trip through the court. They did not need DIP Financing that absolutely would have made our concessions much worse as what others went through.

That is the reality more so than good or bad negotiations.

 

 

[robbedagain]

the bottom line on this current negogs should be to enhance our scope  protect all the cities where we have mainline  bring our wages up to AA level  2 yr retro and  improve sick      nothing short of that...   then go in for jcba with bigger ideas
 
we are not ch11 anymore    enough is enough   

 

[AANOTOK]

Josh the ENTIRE Industry has been decimated by the revolving door of Bankruptcy. Who cares how much anyone lost over another. We ALL lost!!!!!

That should have been directed at 700 as well, don't you think WeAAsles?? I do believe he stated:
 
"I am not getting into a pissing match with you but you at AA did not go through the same concessions as we did at US."
 
and
 
"You did not suffer the same pain and length of time that the PMUS employees have suffered"

 

[700UW]

Its the truth, the IAM was able to secure gains in the Transition Agreement in 2008 after the merger of US and HP.

 

[WeAAsles]

You are lying again.
 
Both IAM CBAs at US have better scope, holidays, OT, sick time, and pension.
 
The TWU ushered in concessions in 1983, and in 2003 when AA WASNT in bankruptcy.
 
Go educate yourself on Section 1113 C or you can keep lying and have ZERO credibility, the choices yours.

Apples to Oranges. Comparing one to the other does not encompass the full picture for either. The how's or why's are too important to just leave out.

What is the current "Full value, overall compensation" package for Fleet within the industry in relation to size and percentage? A full contract is never and shall never consist of only one or two items. It needs to be measured for entire size of the pie.  

 

[WeAAsles]

That should have been directed at 700 as well, don't you think WeAAsles?? I do believe he stated:
 
"I am not getting into a pissing match with you but you at AA did not go through the same concessions as we did at US."
 
and
 
"You did not suffer the same pain and length of time that the PMUS employees have suffered"

I just did that AANOTOK and if you look back in the thread I have stated absolute realities to many people without choosing one side over the other.

 

[737823]

I'm just grateful MIA is a TWU station, unfortunately BOS will be IAM. Ideally I'd prefer no merger and no alliance.

Josh

 

[WeAAsles]

What I do wish from EVERYONE would be to STOP trying to compare the TWU with the IAM or any other Union out there. You people maybe just really don't realize how fortunate you have it in comparison to our non union counterparts out there. Maybe you people need to start reading some BLS reports or something.

I want the association because I'm sick and tired of corporate America and their pocket politicians laughing at us. Yes they laugh their heads off at us fighting each other like a bunch of stupid idiots. 

Get your heads out of your you know what's before there are no unions left for you to fight over or about. Anyone who grew up in NYC should remember the commercials for the ILGWU. Where are they now huh??????

 

[Tim Nelson]

Stirring the pot I see.
 
It was bankruptcy, go educate yourself, oh wait, here is what you said the other day.
 
 

As an aside, regarding NY, you are absolutely correct in that his experience isn't the reality of the current case before the NMB.  I don't have a problem with NY giving his experience back when AA was close to bankrupt and the industry was still hemorrhaging just out of bankruptcy, but when he applies it to the present case and then hammers you or any IAM member as being out of bounds for being open to a release, he steps over the line of being helpful and into the line of being arrogant with absolute and polar extreme thinking.   
 
The reality of the situation is that the NMB didn't rule for a release at AA because it was either the biggest or second biggest airline and on the verge of bankruptcy in an industry that was still digesting bankruptcies in an economy that was barely surviving the great recession.  To apply that today is nonsensical.  That said, we should be open that a release may happen and I think there is a good case made.  My only suggestion was to do both/and, i.e., expect a release but Y this thing and hedge in another direction as well.  Sorta respecting what you and NY both say.

 

[AANOTOK]

What I do wish from EVERYONE would be to STOP trying to compare the TWU with the IAM or any other Union out there. You people maybe just really don't realize how fortunate you have it in comparison to our non union counterparts out there. Maybe you people need to start reading some BLS reports or something.

I want the association because I'm sick and tired of corporate America and their pocket politicians laughing at us. Yes they laugh their heads off at us fighting each other like a bunch of stupid idiots. 

Get your heads out of your you know what's before there are no unions left for you to fight over or about. Anyone who grew up in NYC should remember the commercials for the ILGWU. Where are they now huh??????

Agreed...but as long as you have folks like Josh who have absolutely nothing to do with any/either union coming on here and "stirring the pot" as 700 likes to say (and I agree), then your always going to have someone respond to his nonsense. As the old saying goes..."there's one in every crowd".

 

[WeAAsles]

As an aside, regarding NY, you are absolutely correct in that his experience isn't the reality of the current case before the NMB.  I don't have a problem with NY giving his experience back when AA was close to bankrupt and the industry was still hemorrhaging just out of bankruptcy, but when he applies it to the present case and then hammers you or any IAM member as being out of bounds for being open to a release, he steps over the line of being helpful and into the line of being arrogant with absolute and polar extreme thinking.   
 
The reality of the situation is that the NMB didn't rule for a release at AA because it was either the biggest or second biggest airline and on the verge of bankruptcy in an industry that was still digesting bankruptcies in an economy that was barely surviving the great recession.  To apply that today is nonsensical.  That said, we should be open that a release may happen and I think there is a good case made.  My only suggestion was to do both/and, i.e., expect a release but Y this thing and hedge in another direction as well.  Sorta respecting what you and NY both say.

The problem with your assessment Tim is that you think the powers that be are going to be more concerned with Airline Workers over Interstate Commerce and the economy?

We're not a Twinkie company you know.

 

[WeAAsles]

Agreed...but as long as you have folks like Josh who have absolutely nothing to do with any/either union coming on here and "stirring the pot" as 700 likes to say (and I agree), then your always going to have someone respond to his nonsense. As the old saying goes..."there's one in every crowd".

I don't want to get back into the Josh thing. It's too much of a distraction and we already have our thoughts on him. Mine aren't going to be changed.

 

[Tim Nelson]

You are lying again.
 
Both IAM CBAs at US have better scope, holidays, OT, sick time, and pension.
 
The TWU ushered in concessions in 1983, and in 2003 when AA WASNT in bankruptcy.
 
Go educate yourself on Section 1113 C or you can keep lying and have ZERO credibility, the choice yours.

I'd prolly prefer the AA sick leave policy if it was a straight up trade of going from 9 days accrued a year with half pay to 5 days with full pay.  The reality is that most can't use more than a few days a year without climbing the discipline ladder.  Anyone burning 9 days will get placed on a level and still only get paid half unless they have been bleseed enough to accumulate 800 hours.  On paper, money wise, 5 at full pay is more than 9 at half pay, right or at least a wash.   As far as the company cost of the retirement option, 5.5% match at $23 [2014 wage at AA] is $1.27 hour benefit, compared to $1.05 for full timer at US AIRWAYS.  I'll have to check but I believe the 5.5% match is also cumulative, i.e., continues to accrue on overtime as well as total compensation.  At US AIRWAYS, about 40% of the workforce is part time and to be quite honest, the IAMPF sucks balls for part timers, regarding company cost outs.  I mean .65 per hour is a joke for anyone, non-union or union.  I hope when the IAM signs a TA, that it doesn't blow smoke up folks ass and suggest that the US AIRWAYS retirement situation is better than AA when 40% of the IAM members only cost the company about $14 buck a week.  Plus the IAMPF isn't based on overtime either.   My point isn't to bust on the IAMPF but rather show that as far as company cost, the 5.5% match cost the company more money than just tossing in $1.05 or .65 for US AIRWAYS members.    When we address the IAMPF in joint talks, I would like to see the IAMPF shifted to a % like they have at United, than a dollar amount.  That way, when you get a wage increase, the IAMPF automatically goes up.
 
As far as holidays, that's a wash as well.  7 holidays with no holiday premium pay, or 5 holidays with holiday premium pay.  If someone worked on 4 holidays with 1.5 pay then that's a straight up even trade money wise, right?  And to be sure, both need to be improved but I'm trying to show that whether it is pension, holidays, sick time, there are similar cost outs. They are just packaged differently.
 
Joint talks, imo, should focus on scope otherwise this craft dies. Gosh forbid, anyone, including myself, campaign for a contract that brags about more days off and more pay but loses jobs.

 

[Tim Nelson]

The problem with your assessment Tim is that you think the powers that be are going to be more concerned with Airline Workers over Interstate Commerce and the economy?

We're not a Twinkie company you know.

Well, at this point,  it's not first person plural.  It's not about 'we' regarding the case before the NMB.  Is it going to get to 'we'? Yes and it will get their fairly soon.  IMO, a single carrier will be ruled on by September and that may change or even snuff out any idea of a release.  I'm not leaning on the NMB as the Rock in all of this, to do so could be a fatal flaw.  My position is to give space to a release but let's not be "All In" with a release without preparing to the reality that AH is recognizing. I'm very uncomfortable with the 'either/or" approach and not bringing anything back for the members to reject or accept, including a strike vote until the NMB finally rules, if ever.  Much less risk and better play with the 'both/and', i.e., give the release a shot but also prepare the membership for a releaseless outcome.  Even the media is now yawning over this. 
 
I think it is past time to apply the 'both/and' approach, in fact I think it is mind boggling not to have engaged the membership yet.  The NMB can stall for months or years, but in any case, it's getting to the critical hour where the NMB either has to rule or the IAM has to move on without a determination.  Bring back and drag the ridiculous company offer in the street and assault it and do so with a strike vote, but just coming back to the members saying the company offer blows and we are prepared to strike seems more than slightly irresponsible.  At least show the company offer even if you don't vote on it.  Management has expressed through video and in breakrooms how it is being fair and reasonable but is working under the NMB processes.  Showing the membership a 1% offer explicitly shows management as liars and puts forth a stronger image of a very real battle where all hands must be on deck.