2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[psa8979]

Brothers/Sisters DP/AH/AAl decisions have more to do about the BIG PICTURE and $$$  of ALL CS Station costs both above the wing CWA/IBT and below the wing the ASSOCIATION at the New American then IAM D-141 politics. Does any one on AF think AAL/DP cares who the Leadership at the IAM  both at the District and Grand Lodge is ? My bet their concerns going forward is how much $$$ they can take out of ALL above the wing PS/CWA/IBT and below the wing the ASSOCIATION Union Workers pockets and put in theirs.  

 

[737823]

Brothers/Sisters DP/AH/AAl decisions have more to do about the BIG PICTURE and $$$  of ALL CS Station costs both above the wing CWA/IBT and below the wing the ASSOCIATION at the New American then IAM D-141 politics. Does any one on AF think AAL/DP cares who the Leadership at the IAM  both at the District and Grand Lodge is ? My bet their concerns going forward is how much $$$ they can take out of ALL above the wing PS/CWA/IBT and below the wing the ASSOCIATION Union Workers pockets and put in theirs.

No but I'm sure they like the division the alliance will create.

Josh

 

[roabilly]

Brothers/Sisters DP/AH/AAl decisions have more to do about the BIG PICTURE and $$$  of ALL CS Station costs both above the wing CWA/IBT and below the wing the ASSOCIATION at the New American then IAM D-141 politics. Does any one on AF think AAL/DP cares who the Leadership at the IAM  both at the District and Grand Lodge is ? My bet their concerns going forward is how much $$$ they can take out of ALL above the wing PS/CWA/IBT and below the wing the ASSOCIATION Union Workers pockets and put in theirs.  

You are correct... if the N/C were to waffle as Tim suggest and hold out for the "real" agreement in the JCBA it may very well keep fleet at BK compensation for several MORE years!

 

[WeAAsles]

No but I'm sure they like the division the alliance will create.

Josh

The alliance will only have division if we allow people like yourself to get in our heads and cause it to happen. You can continue to play your games as much as you like but we're totally on to you.

 

[psa8979]

Correct WEAAsles . 737823 are you a Suit, Judge, or NMB ? 

 

[roabilly]

Its actually quite the opposite. I'm in a lose lose situation saying the things that I have been saying, but I don't bow for politics. Much better politically for me to just sit back and not even bother debating since February gave the team I'm on a strong indication on where all the United and Continental support is.
 
Regarding US AIRWAYS, what I have said is real and in writing, by both the TWU MOU and the IAM statement regarding the duration it will negotiate in stand alone talks 'until' [the IAM's words, not mine] the NMB rules on a single carrier.  And everyone knows the history of this IAM141 group and how it firebombed the United pre-joint talks with a goose-egg unlike all other unions.  But, others like BSing members into believing the current pre-joint talk negotiations will produce a comprehensive contract.  Nobody wants to hear me saying how this thing necessarily will be winding down and the IAM"s path could be $0 for you.   Trust me, I got absolutely hammered speaking the truth over at United because the IAM141 eboard blew so much smoke up everyone's ass that it made me look like a jackass.  At the end of the day, the United members found out the VERY VERY hard way by biting on the BS of IAM141 and got NOTHING in pre-joint talks.  Because of politics, they left 12% on the table along with medical and job security.  All other unions at United took what was reasonably on the table and didn't burn themselves playing politics.  The same path, unthinkably, is happening over here at US AIRWAYS. 70,000 other employees already signed pre merger contracts with AH.  Yet, we all know that each AH proposal has gotten worse and worse with the IAM?  Why?  Is it because he has a personal vendetta against the IAM?  Of course not.  It's because AH doesn't have a sense of humor with politics.  It's easy to write a email like Mark Baskett did asking for AMR wages and then attaching 5 other items to that and tell everyone that they will make AH give us all of it.  Sure as hell looks good anyways.  But I guess you can ask for anything in political season, but I still haven't heard a plan on how Mark is going to get AH to give our group all of that from Mark's final offer.  BTW, Mark wasn't even allowed to go into negotiations so his reports are second hand.  BTW, for the record, I think AMR wages and job security are a very real thing, at least, that we should be able to nab before joint talks but I think AH isn't biting because he feels all the other attachments weigh down the offer.  And I'd hate to walk away from that with a goose-egg.  It appears that AH may feel that the NC is trying to fit 10 lbs of potatoes in a 5 lb bag so "he's out" and tapped out with a ridiculous 1% offer.  Maybe AH strokes time by upping his offer from the 1% to show movement to the NMB, knowing full well that June 9 is only a bit more than 2 more months of rope a dope for him to play.
 
IAM141 is playing politics again, buying votes by telling everyone that it is going to make AH give them $2.43 immediate pay raise, about 12 more days off per year, more retirement, more scope in the midst of pre-joint talk negotiations.   And THEY are the ones who can get away with BSing since AH won't be signing on that package in the next two months. Even a strike within pre-joint talks context won't make AH cave in to all of those demands.  Oops, I lost a few more votes.   The very real threat of playing politics for votes is that it has not only polarized talks but also set our group against a clock that is VERY REAL.  Like I said, we will find out before June 9 if they have a release in the bag.  If they have a release then great!  If not then we been punked because no way does the NMB give a release after a single carrier is filed, and it has never rewarded a union with a release after the union intentionally violates its contract. We will find out before June 9, and your station votes later in the month.  
 
So, mike, please tell me how what I just said buys votes? I don't know one person who wants to hear what I just said.  We will find out by June 9, at the latest about a release.  Like I said, if they have been told 'off the record' that one is coming, it will be coming before June 9.  If not then we have all been stroked, and in doing so, they have alienated, polarized, and polluted the negotiation room.  There is a reason why 70,000 other employees found acceptable contracts already but AH offered his worst contract yet.
 
I'm interested in AMR wages and getting all of our current stations grandfathered like PVD and BDL were.  If we can work on getting more because we have been told we will get a release, then great.  But if we are just pissing in the political winds and haven't the knowledge of a release then there is a real and present danger of leaving it all on the table as our union did at United.

It's real simple... you always insert your prefabricated conspiracy theories into this forum to make the Union Leadership look stupid, corrupt, uneducated, and incapable of leading. Only a few readers know all of this has been going on for decades, and with each election, it reaches an all new new crescendo!
 
Of course, your main theme is always the same... "if we elect YOU", you will begin an effort to rid the Union of ALL the problems you have created!
 
Hell Nelson... every time you post, there is link to your personal political web-site... you can't get anymore political than that!!
 
Do you think we're stupid? Ohhh... I forgot... apparently I am... as you have labeled me a moron numerous times! 

 

[737823]

Correct WEAAsles . 737823 are you a Suit, Judge, or NMB ?

AA passenger with many friends that work in the industry.

Josh

 

[737823]

The alliance will only have division if we allow people like yourself to get in our heads and cause it to happen. You can continue to play your games as much as you like but we're totally on to you.

ok on the twu website it said they asked for the nmb to run the vote. i dont know what the choices on the ballot will be BUT i will be voting NO to the alliance. in fact i would write in the mickey mouse club before ill vote for the twu.i would be like to be able to write in a choice but if that is not possible:
alliance- HELL NO last thing i need is to be divided further.
TWU- FU*CKING HELL NO had 24 years of that don't need them any more.
IAM- going to make the same post on usair forums for opinions got a good idea what ill hear.
WRITE IN? AMFA why? see above.
if the write in option is not available then no union it is.

in fact not sure if the nmb will run the vote.

The IAM and the TWU asking the NMB to conduct a Vote at this time would be detrimental to their cause since the IAM and US have not come up with any agreement and I think that the IAM mechanics should vote it down just on principal.
 
They have seen what we have here at aa and what the TWU has done to us so why would they want to bring the IAM/TWU together to screw them even more.
 
I would hope that the AA guys will vote it down as well.
 
The IBT brought in by the TWU, screwed us by splitting the card count, now we have another chance to rid AA of the TWU. So if there is a write in option, (IF) the NMB conducts a election before we collect enough AMFA cards to have an election, WRITE IN AMFA...  
 
Lets JOIN the union which represents mechanics of the airlines.
 
Auto/Facilities/aircraft lets have a say in all aspects of our future
NO more behind the door deals, No more giving our work to other work groups, just to save the company money. No more having less benefits than other work groups. No more enough is enough.
 
If you are tired of the same Ole union scams, by the same Ole union guy's then lets make a change and maybe we will get others who will be willing to part of the culture change to step up and do the job we expect them to do rather than being in the companies pocket due to deals for themselves.  You all know who those union reps are.
 
AMFA for the Mechanics class and craft at AA/US in 2014, Vote NO to the TWU/IAM Association.

They can,, but apparently only if both agree. I can fully understand the IAM agreeing to this, since their group is much smaller, if they couldnt get enough cards from AA workers to get to the 50% plus 1 they would lose members and dues, their track record at USAIR isnt very convincing, the question is why did Little agree?

I believe this was Littles last gift to AA management and final betrayal of the membership. A structural division of the membership betweeen two equally weak unions that would ensure that management gets whatever they want for many years to come.

If there was no agreement then the only possible chance the IAM would have as far as being the "winning" union would be to take a much more agressive position in negotiations and hope that by getting a deal at US that was far superior to what the TWU had in place that TWU members would fill out cards. But what happened? The IAM signed the deal, then sat on the sidelines for months, giving US labor peace when they certainly did not deserve it. Their table position, what they are asking for, isnt even industry leading, its below what UAL and DAL get, weak, very weak. So now we would have the biggest airline in the country where mechanics are the worst paid in the industry, by far, being split between two unions with a track record of substandard contracts, in a structure that will no doubt continue to deliver substandard contracts for the NEW AA.

Without the Alliance the IAM would have had no choice but to take a very agressive position in negotiations, they certainly would have nothing to lose by doing so, who benefits from the IAMs timidity in negotiations? The company. Who benefits from a weak Union structure? The company. Who benefits from a structurally divided membership ? The company. Who loses? WE DO.

Its doubtful that the Joint agreement will be better than the best parts of both contracts which would still be a substandard contract for mechanics, and even if we got that how many years beyond 2018 would the company be demanding? Built in excuses as we sit well into the next decade at the bottom of the industry. I can hear it already "Be patient, this will be our first section six negotiations since the merger", where have we heard that before? US went into BK 11 years ago in 2002 and we hear the IAM saying that to their workers going into 2014.

Today I came across a copy of the 2001 agreement. In 2003 our base pay was $30.61, in 2015 it will be $30.62. We still had shift premiums and Longevity back then so without even factoring in all the other lost benefits or inflation our pay in 2015 will still be much less than it was in 2003, how many more years will we be looking up from the bottom if we allow this Alliance, where the Negotiators will be appointed, to negotiate the next contract? Are you prepared to hear the excuse that USAIR workers, who have been out of BK for over 8 years have been hearing, blaming the merger and the deal they cut that locked them out of normal negootiations even longer? The last thing we need is to walk into these negotiations represented by two different unions. We must walk in as one.

The pilots and flight attendants who were never at the bottom of the industry have correctly decided that they will not enter such flawed structures, nor will they battle for the membership, for the sake of the members one bowed out. Clearly their organizations put the members ahead of dues. We must make it clear that these two unions must come up with a better plan, or the members will. The whole point of forming a Union is to take the power of many and make it into one, not two. Certainly not two where all the power is taken away from the members. This alliance they have created will give us less accountability than we had with Jim Littles TWU. Its a managements dream come true. We have made some important advances since the Convention, and Local 591 is becoming more than the sum of the five line Locals, this Alliance would undo that. The base Locals would remain pretty much intact, but the Line would be split and shuffled between the IAM and TWU with all authority, not just negotiations ,once again being with the International and its appointees instead of elected Presidents.

This is something that Jim Little and his appointees put together. We must teell them its unacceptable and they need to come up with something else, we should not agree to this Allaince BS.

Josh

 

[john john]

BS

 

[robbedagain]

Roa  I don't think youre a moron or anything bro..   I for one do think our NC team is doing the best they can but the problems are the NMB and the dirty ole Donkeys with their refusal to actually negogiate yet they give the AA folks higher wages etc to do the same job we do    
 
Screw that   Enough is Enough  Efff them f..krs      Time to be released 
 
Tim  IF and that's a big IF   you were to be elected   you claim you would bring my case up right away  or shortly there after  but im still waiting to see how that will happen given the fact my case is awaiting arb hearing date to be set....  considering the dates have to be agreed upon by all parties

 

[roabilly]

Roa  I don't think youre a moron or anything bro..   I for one do think our NC team is doing the best they can but the problems are the NMB and the dirty ole Donkeys with their refusal to actually negogiate yet they give the AA folks higher wages etc to do the same job we do    
 
Screw that   Enough is Enough  Efff them f..krs      Time to be released 
 
Tim  IF and that's a big IF   you were to be elected   you claim you would bring my case up right away  or shortly there after  but im still waiting to see how that will happen given the fact my case is awaiting arb hearing date to be set....  considering the dates have to be agreed upon by all parties

"IF" he is elected, he may not even be assigned to your region. further, he would be sent to training for a few weeks...
 
Campaign promises are easy to make, especially when you are already in the elected position when they are broken!

 

[psa8979]

TN could be elected IAM Grand Lodge President. It wouldn't change the game plan of AAL/DP in reducing costs/$$$ both above and below the wing. 737823 tell them what AAL/DP cares about  ? Yes for Brother Tim AF is a political tool. June comes after April/May. Fish On !

 

[737823]

AA will follow the IAM's lead at United and farm out many stations. Hold the line on scope!

Josh

 

[Tim Nelson]

You are correct... if the N/C were to waffle as Tim suggest and hold out for the "real" agreement in the JCBA it may very well keep fleet at BK compensation for several MORE years!

Not my suggestion but I guess I can't stop you from quote mining me. 
 
For the record, the IAM said, " The IAM will continue bargaining with US Airways for its current members at the stand-­‐alone carrier until the National Mediation Board determines single carrier."
 
Tim Nelson didn't say that.  I didn't put the duration of 'until' single carrier on there.  Further,  by even reasonable conclusions,  a single carrier will come, at the latest, by September [insert a 5 month time frame winding down here] since the TWU contract says,
 
"The TWU must file a single carrier application, and support such application no later than 6 months from the effective date."
 
That puts the single carrier application at June 9.  That has nothing to do with Tim Nelson.   So, we can say, based on what is written [and not Roabillys continueal bull Sh*t] that the TWU will either file a single carrier application by June 9, or intentionally violate its agreement on June 9 and force a 30 day resolution that is already built in because of Item 9 in its contract.   So, at the latest, July 9 which would bring a single carrier determination by September.
 
We had many members asking how the United members could get hoodwinked twice, first with $0 as the only union group to leave money and job security on the table at United in pre-joint talks, and then twice by getting a contract that is the worst in the industry.  The reason is because all your boys do is Bull Sh*t and play politics as they destroy this industry craft. 
 
Not surprisingly, there is a reason why 70,000 other employees now at US AIRWAYS/AMR have worked out pre-joint talk agreements, 8 other groups, but our guys continue to talk big. I'm easy, I would love to get everything Mark says he will get, but AH isn't so easy.  In fact, AH and JG have already started the process of taking things off the table.  My hunch is that they may tweak their next proposal up to show movement but if the politics continues to be king then please share with us how we will get anything at all when the IAM already has pacts to leave stand alone talks at single carrier?
 
Let's talk about that Roabilly, and please share with us how all the chest thumping worked out at United and now here?  You, my friend, are playing with the jobs and money of 6,000 of your former coworkers by fire bombing things and stirring stuff up from a retirement porch.  I will not ask for an apology but I do ask that when you manage to cost fleet service more money that you please excuse yourself from this board and enjoy your retirement without screwing up our lives.

 

[Tim Nelson]

TN could be elected IAM Grand Lodge President. It wouldn't change the game plan of AAL/DP in reducing costs/$$$ both above and below the wing. 737823 tell them what AAL/DP cares about  ? Yes for Brother Tim AF is a political tool. June comes after April/May. Fish On !

The focus now is on getting a fair agreement.  Management has agreed to 8 different contracts in rapid fashion affecting 70,000 employees already.  I don't share Mark Baskett's view that he will get AH to give our group all of the things he said he will get for us.  And you are absolutely correct brother, it wouldn't matter if Tim Nelson is the head of the association or not.  DP isn't going to hand Mark Baskett or Tim Nelson or anyone a new fluffy contract pre-joint talks that gets you more retirement, 12 more paid days off a year, a $2.43 immediate pay hike, more scope, etc. 
 
At any rate, if that one fish is on, then I agree....let's reel him in!