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2015 Pilot Discussion.

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luvthe9 said:
I'm sure the will let the APA know about the 74's they use to have. Yea the APA will soon learn about the west pilots sense of entitlement.
Click to expand...
On the america west pilots merger committee website they have a 747 picture, scroll down to see.  They had two empty flying ones to Japan 20 years ago. 
 
http://www.west-merger-committee.com/
 
Not on america west pilots merger committee website.
 
America_West_Dash_8-100.jpg
 
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007
Subject: The MIGHTY U-Turn Says: WE TOLD YOU SO!



" For the past 16 months, everything U-Turn has put out has been attacked and ridiculed by our MEC, their suck-up supporters and many rank and file members. We were called fools, traitors, idiots and worse. We were accused of capitulating to the East and even supporting them. We were accused of crying wolf for our scenarios which could never happen. We were accused of being agents of USAPA.

But with this evening’s MEC Hotline written by Chairman John McIlvenna, the truth is now finally coming to light. And all we can say is: we told you so!]




"WE TOLD YOU SO"......................Dave knows!
 
"The CRAM-DOWN continues. The Nicolau Award will be FENCED, WALLED, IGNORED, MODIFIED and/or TRASHED. That’s Herndon’s plan and now our MEC’s plan. Not that U-Turn didn’t predict this months ago. And here we go with the MEC excuses…"
 
Yeah. The flying is going back East, where the yield is. And if you put up a fence, you take away our pilots’ access to those upgrades.



I don’t know that I have any answers to the above questions yet. I simply don’t have all the data to make those decisions, but I have moved us into overdrive to get the required data so that all pilots can follow our decision-making process.



Take a look at U-Turn’s data, Johnnie. It’s all there. Not that you don’t already have access to it.



We’re not going to splice all of the remainder of this MEC capitulation, but here comes the cram-down:



…we believe it is essential to present this proposal no later than November 15, 2007.



I promise you that I, and all your leaders and committee volunteers will continue to plan and strategize in the short, medium and longer terms to ensure that we secure a ratifiable fair and equitable contract, and that we always look out for the interests of all pilots and their families.

All we at U-Turn can say is: WE TOLD YOU SO!




WHAT ASHAME YOU LET YOUR AIRLINE GET HIJACKED BY JUNIOR IDIOTS FROM A PRETEND LAW SCHOOL WHEN YOU HAD SOME PRETTY SMART GUYS THAT YOU IGNORED.
 
It does matter after age 60 changes in the next two to three months or the next two to three years. Over the next three years, 753 East pilots turn 60. Here at AWA, only 144. Johnnie would have you believe that the furlough protection is a non-issue. Why? He plans on trading the Nicolau List away.



What is the real attrition data both East and West?



Here’s the Age 60 list, Johnnie. And you should know it by just looking at the Lists:



2007 East: 263 West: 42
2008 East: 220 West: 45
2009 East: 277 West: 47
2010 East: 246 West: 52







JOHNNIE MAC..................THE WESTS BIGGEST IDIOT?
 
The West Pilot Merger Committee Members:

David Braid
Mark Burman
Johan de Vicq
Eric Ferguson
Jeff O'Connell
Russ Payne
Jim Van Sickle
Mitch Vasin
Roger Velez





You might want to get rid of this group.............not the brightest bunch of guys.
 
Is it an alphabetical list or is it in order of the one with the biggest/longest PowerPoint presentation?
 
luvthe9 said:
I'm sure the will let the APA know about the 74's they use to have. Yea the APA will soon learn about the west pilots sense of entitlement.
Click to expand...
I can find at least two shining examples of East entitlement.

Exhibit I......

Dear USAPA Grievance Committee,

Thank you so much for your time in reading my grievance. I'll try my best to make my point as quickly as possible, but there are quite a few topics within this grievance I'd like to touch on.


First, I'd like to express my disagreement of allowing the West Furlough's who have been working on the East Operation for the last two years to move ahead of the 2007 and 2008 hires by issuing them their original America West date-of-hire. I myself was hired at USAirways on February 25, 2008 in which at that time USAirways and America West were still two seperate operating certificates. It is my understanding that our operation did not have a single operating certificate until late October 2008. That was eight months after I was hired. In my opinion, this makes me an original USAirways hire and feel it extremely unfair that the Transition Agreement does not reflect that. I also feel that it is extremely unfair to move a pilot from any other operation ahead of me or any other 2007/2008 hire on a seniority list.


Second, the Transition Agreement was written with the understanding that USAirways and America West would one day become one company, one union, one operation, one contract and one seniority list. To this date, we have separate seniority lists, separate contracts and separate operations. How is it that a pilot from a completely different operation and seniority list be moved ahead of another pilot at another operation on another seniority list? I understand that a future combined seniority list will make this argument null and void, but until then, moving a West pilot in front of any East pilot is a premature move that causes the East pilot to loose positions, career advancements and money. Also, what will happen to the West pilot if he/she is awarded their original America West date-of-hire on the East Operation and USAirways fails to ever merge with America West? What if we are never a single operation? What would happen to these West Furlough's if Doug Parker decided to sell off parts of the West Operation with this American merger to appease the DOJ? This might sound absurd to anyone reading this, but in 2008/2009 during the potential USAirways/United merger, the possibility of selling off some assets was indeed discussed. In fact, USAirways undoubtedly agreed to the idea of allowing Robert 'Bob' Johnson, President of Black Entertainment Television (BET) to buy 38 United Airplanes and operate them out of Washington, DC. The DOJ even then said we would be too big if we merged with United and they are saying the same thing now. Bill Franke in Phoenix, AZ has already indicated back in August of this year that he is interested in obtaining another, ''low cost'' operation and would like to operate it out of PHX. Franke appears to be after Frontier Airlines at this time, but nothing is official yet. My point is, if for whatever reason the Transition Agreement never comes to fruition, what happens to the America West pilot if they are given their original America West date-of-hire here at USAirways/The New American and our merger with America West never occurs? Will they be allowed to keep that original America West date-of-hire, when we aren't even fully merged with America West? Will they stay here on USAirways/The New American's property senior to someone like me when they never even interviewed at USAirways at all? Why not just hire someone from Southwest and allow them to keep their original Southwest date-of-hire. That to me is absurd.


Third, I am hearing that USAPA and USAirways are currently working together to modify the Transition Agreement that is dated 2005 to allow the West Furlough's to stay on the East Operation with their original America West date-of-hire. If this is in fact true, then shouldn't the pilot group as a whole get a chance to vote on this change? Can USAPA and USAirways just change the wording of an agreement without disseminating the possible change to the pilot group? If USAPA is indeed, ''the pilot's union,'' then I'd be very disappointed in my union if they just changed the wording of the Transition Agreement without fairly explaining the change to our pilot group and honoring our opinion and voice. Isn't that what USAPA was founded on? Changing the Transition Agreement now would be USAPA and USAirways' way of protecting the West Furlough's and their inconveince of having to go back to PHX. What about the inconvenience to the 2007 and 2008 hires of loosing job positions and wages do to the West Furloughs being placed senior to us? Why aren't we protected in the Transition Agreement when we were here at USAirways since before we even became a single operating certificate with America West? And furthermore, why not take a look back at the USAirways East Furlough's that went to work on the West Operation in 2005/2006 and give them, ''back pay'' for the position and money lost becuase they were not awarded their USAirways East date-of-hire at that time? I understand that they went to the bottom of the West Seniority List due to the wording of the Transition Agreement. If we change the Transition Agreement now, to give the current West Furlough's their original America West date-of-hire, then those 2005/2006 East Furlough's that went to work on the West Operation should have been awarded senior First Officer position's instead of reserve First Officer positions in which they actually held. Shouldn't they get back pay for those lost wages in 2005/2006? And if the Transition Agreement is going to be modified to allow the West Furlough's to stay on the East Operation with their original America West date-of-hire, why not extend that same offer to the 2005/2006 East Furlough's to move to the West Operation with their original USAirways date-of-hire?


Fourth, it's my understanding that USAPA and USAirways want to help, 'soften the blow' of the inconvience of the West Furlough's that physically moved themselves and their families to the east coast and are now being forced to move back to the PHX base. Is USAPA and USAirways also going to help the hundreds of PIT pilot's who moved their families to Pennsylvaina years ago with the understanding that they'd be based out of PIT for their entire career? What about the West pilot's that moved their families to LAS and then had to move them back to PHX when LAS was closed? Is USAPA and USAirways going to help them too? No one is forcing any West employee or East employee to do anything or move their family anywhere. It's just the nature of the industry we work in. Either you move or you commute. It's that simple and it's a choice we all have to make. But one thing that you are not allowed to do is bypass hundreds of other pilot's on a seniority list just because things don't work out the way you planned and you uprooted your whole family under the ospossis that your first choice base is going to stay open for the duration of your career. The way I see it, the West Furlough's are lucky to have been given an opportunity to fly while they were on furlough when they could have been sitting on the street with no flying job at all. I agree whole-heartedly to let them fly on our East Operation and stay their entire careers if they want to. Just don't put them senior to pilots that were originally hired by USAirways prior to our two companies obtaining a Single Operating Certificate. If the West Furlough's want to stay on the East Operation's Seniority List, then give them the date-of-hire in which they came over to the East Operation from the West Operation. If they want to go back to the West Operation, then by all means, give them back their America West seniority number and date-of-hire.


Finally, I understand that USAPA wants to set a presidence for date-of-hire. Not only do I understand, but I agree. I also understand that if you look at the West Furlough's and factor in longevity then they all will enivitably be senior to the 2007/2008 hires in the event that an Integrated Seniority List is ever put in place. But, by doing it now is a premature move that could cost any, 2007/2008 hire a seniority spot on a future Integrated Seniority List. And, by doing this prematurely, it is costing the 2007/2008 hires positions and wages. For example, I am currently on reserve when mutiple West Furlough's who came to the East Operation are holding Secondary Blocks because they, in my opinion, were prematurely placed senior to me effective June, 2013. Also, I am displaced off of the 757/767 in PHL when multiple West Furlough's who came to the East Operation can now hold the 757/767 in PHL. I missed the 757/767 in PHL by one number on the March 2013 bid. I held the 757/767 PHL bid in August 2013 by one number. And, effective November 2013, I am being displaced off of the 757/767 in PHL by four numbers. How is it fair that the East and West pilot groups are still two different seniority lists and a West pilot can be placed senior to an East pilot? I don't think that the Transition Agreement was written to allow that to happen. I don't have to tell you how important a seniority number can be. And I'm sure you can appreciate why I am trying to protect mine. Even one number can make a huge difference.


In conclusion, with regards to the Transition Agreement, I would like to point out that a presidence has already been set with the way it reads now. And if any changes are to be made to the Transition Agreement, it should be voted on by the entire pilot group. In my opinion the Transition Agreement should be changed to reflect all USAirways East pilots who were on East property prior to the implementation of the Single Operating Certificate dated October, 2008. And inclusive of the 2007 and 2008 hires. For example: In 2005 when the Transition Agreement was written there were USAirways East pilots on furlough and working on the West Operation while America West was fully staffed. Between 2005 and 2007, all USAirways East Fulough's were called back to the East Operation and again, America West stayed fully staffed. Both sides were fully staffed in 2007 and USAirways East even began to hire off the street. USAPA likes to call these pilot's, 'The Third Lister's,' but I like to refer to us as the 2007/2008 hires. Either way, the 2007 and 2008 pilots were on USAirways East Property prior to October, 2008 when the Single Operating Certificate was finally obtained. That same year, both the East and West Operation had to furlough pilot's do to rising oil prices and the Age 65 Rule being implemented by the FAA. The West Furlough's were not furloughed becuase of the, 'Third Lister's,' they were furloughed due to industry wide turmoil. So, I'm asking USAPA and USAirways to not punish the East pilot's hired in 2007 and 2008, (The Third Lister's) by placing the West Furlough's senior to us. We were furloughed as well. And we moved our families across the country as well to chase flying jobs. It was hard on everyone, not just the West Furlough's. When our own USAirways East pilot's were not given their-date-of-hire when they went to work on the West Operation why give the West pilot's their date-of-hire on our East operation? If you're going to change the Transition Agreement to benefit the West pilot's that came to work on the East Operation, then protect the 2007/2008 pilots who were here first, before the Single Operating Certificate was obtained. And furthermore, USAPA and USAirways wants me to give up my seniority and my livelihood on the primus and promise that we are inevitably going to merge with America West, and I don't agree with this because it's going on 8 years and it hasn't happened yet. I feel that any West Furlough that wants to stay on the East Operation should go behind the 2007/2008 hires. I feel that they should be given a date-of-hire that started the day they started flying on the East Operation. I personally feel that the union that I pay dues to and always have paid dues to is not looking after my best interest at all. And changing the Transition Agreement to benefit a group of pilots who at the time I was hired was flying on a completely different certificate is a movement that is highly detrimental to myself and the other 2007/2008 hires. It's a movement worthy of a DFR on behalf of the those 2007/2008 hires because USAPA isn't representing our best interests what-so-ever in this case. The 2007/2008 hires are loosing positions and money to a group of pilots who did not interview at USAirways, did not get hired at USAirways and would be on the street if it was not for USAirways.


Thank-you so much for your time as I know this grievance is a bit lengthy. I ask that you please give this grivence your full focus and consideration. And know that it isn't just about me. It's about the 98 USAPA pilots that were hired in 2007 and 2008 and the protection of our seniority numbers.

Exhibit II......

November 20,2013
Senior Judge Roslyn O. Silver
United States District Court
Sandra Day O'Connor U.S. Courthouse, Suite 624
401 West Washington Street, SPC 59
Phoenix, AZ 85003-2158
Dear Senior Judge Silver:
It's never been clear to me what a Judge's job is: to apply intellect, scholarly knowledge and
precedent to cases at hand in order to render a scientifically and legally correct verdict, or
to do justice. Or perhaps it is some combination of the two. In a perfect world of course one
would do both simultaneously. But I venture to guess that since our world is imperfect, that
is why your job is such a difficult one. Ajob that one doesn't come by easily.
Though I wouldn'tdare'co'mparemyselfwithsomeone of your credentials and a'U.S; Senate
confirmation no less.Lean fairly say that I did l1otcomebymyjobeasiIy either; '; ,
To (getmyjob I had to have a spotless record, a four-year degree or higher; uncorrected
20/20 visionandabout'Ifl years of applicable experience. Once I'met those qualifications I
felt lucky when I was invited to travel across the countrythree different times for three
succeeding interviews that included challenging written tests, medical and psychological
evaluations, on the job operational testing, verbal quizzing and testing and other extensive
screenings culminating in a very stressful board interview, Only about one out of seven
invitees to the initial interviews ultimately received an offer of employment.
When I accomplished all of this'and was hired for lily dream job at the relatively young age
of 28 I was thrilled. It was reflected by those who surrounded me, who all had to go
through the same selection process. And it was reflected by the career that lay ahead of us.
We all had gotten a job where we worked under one of the leading contracts in the industry
with some of the highest levels of compensation, an outstanding retirement program and
the best training, professional envir-onment and work rules in the industry.
We all looked forward to our defined benefit retirement plan that provided us with a
guaranteed lifetime annuity 'of over $10,000per inonth for life beginning at age 60, or
under many-circumstances a lump sum payment of just over one million dollars:
We werethe bestof the'best andWere compensated accordingly, Formermilitary officers
consisting of commanders, fighter and transport pilots and educated, refined, credentialed,
experienced and carefully selected civilians. We were, and still are, the Sully's of aviation:
Case 2:13-cv-00471-ROS Document 285 Filed 11/25/13 Page 2 of 4
just the kind of person you want in the cockpit of the airliner you're flying on when the
chips are down.
These criteria and compensation levels applied to all three of the legacy airlines that had
come together to form U.S. Airways: Pacific Southwest Airlines (where Sully came from),
Piedmont Airlines where I was hired in 1989, and USAir, with roots back to the original Air
Mail service in the 1930's.
I don't know whether or not you're a fan of baseball but I feel comfortable saying with
some certainty that when a kid is growing up and wants to be a baseball player he doesn't
say "When I grow up I want to play for the Reno Aces!" No, s/he wants to play for the
Arizona Diamondbacks, the San Francisco Giants or the New York Yankees. Not the Fresno
Grizzlies or the Wilkes Barre Rail Riders.
I mention this, much of which you likely already know, because I also have a unique
perspective of America West Airlines: Through a provision of the Transition Agreement I
was one of only 5 "East" pilots who ended up flying out of Phoenix in the former America
West system between December 2007 and August 2008. And let me tell you, it was not
what I was used to!
As it is in baseball, so it is also with the airlines. Nobody with my qualifications aspired to
become a pilot for America West. Rather, the pilots of America West ended up there after
not making the cut at American, Delta, Northwest, United, USAir, PSA, Piedmont or the
other top-tier legacy airlines. I accurately felt that I had temporarily been "sent down" to
AAA from my spot in the major leagues.
All of a sudden I was flying with a group of rag-tag pilots who by their standards, had hit
the big-time and were flying jet airliners. Few, (26%, I am told) had a four-year degree.
Many wore thick glasses and many were quite overweight. Rather than officers, the
military veterans were former load-masters, landing signal officers and other noncommissioned
officers. And the core group who helped to get the airline up and running in
the 1980's were former strike-breakers from the big 1983 strike at Continental Airlines.
Even my simulator training instructor was second-tier. He was an 83 year old subcontractor
in a polo shirt and khakis, not a suit-clad check airman who was a manager in
the flight operations department at a major airline like I was used to.
The same standard held true for their fleet and working conditions. The America West
pilots had no retirement program besides a 401(k), worked to the limits permitted by
regulation and even had a joke about the airplanes they flew. It was "We had a
standardized fleet. Until we got our second airplane." It too was a rag-tag collection of used
and lease-returned airplanes. Never once did a shiny new plane make its way from the
factory straight on over to Phoenix. (Standardization in the cockpit is a hallmark of safety,
and identical cockpits like we had on every single airplane in the East were a rarity on the
West fleet.)
Case 2:13-cv-00471-ROS Document 285 Filed 11/25/13 Page 3 of 4
Upon consummation of the merger the former America West flight operations department,
including all of flight training and standards, was gutted and replaced in its entirety by the
East flight operations department. And the fleet was upgraded. All of the old 737's were
replaced by brand new A-321's and every other airplane was upgraded and retrofitted to
meet the standards of our top-tier airline.
While I was there, America West had its very best pilot contract ever while U.S. Airways
had its absolute worst, after two bankruptcies. Ironically these two contracts were pretty
much the same when it came to total compensation.
I can't tell you how thrilled the five of us East pilots flying in the West were when we got to
return to the East in October, 2008 when the America West Las Vegas base was closed and
Phoenix pilots were furloughed.
Since then and with time it has become increasingly clear that the value of the U.S. Airways
franchise is in the East. Unlike the five of us East pilots who got stuck in the West for a short
time five years ago, today the twenty or so West Pilots who have been flying in the East for
the last severa/years are fighting tooth and nail to not have to go back to the West.
Meanwhile, shiny new Airbuses, including brand new wide-bodies continue to be delivered
to the East as classes of 20 new-hire pilots per month come to the East month after month.
And the East continues to add new international destinations such as Istanbul, Athens and
Edinburgh.
For the old America West, how likely would a merger with American Airlines have been
without U.S. Airways? Please forgive me if I sound like a snob but it is true: Never in their
wildest dreams did a single America West pilot ever think he would be flying brand new
wide-body aircraft to Europe while making $200,000 a year. But now they can.
Why am I telling you all of this? Perhaps I sound entitled. I love to root for the underdog.
But I can tell you this for certain: I earned my job to be with the best of the best when I was
hired in 1989. And I guarantee that anyone of the current West pilots would have accepted
my job offer on the date I got it over the one that they have now if they could have gotten it.
But they couldn't.
If you think it's fair to take a kid who was sitting in new-hire ground school at America
West in 2005 while I had 16 years of service flying in the East and put him over 300
seniority numbers ahead of me, then implement the Nicolau Award.
If you think it's fair to take an America West pilot who started at that airline 10 years after I
was flying at U.S. Airways, who couldn't make the cut at USAir, Piedmont, PSA, American,
Delta or United and make him a wide body captain flying to Europe while simultaneously
making me his career co-pilot, then implement the Nicolau Award.
To be blunt, with the formation of the new American Airlines the pilots of the East and the
pilots at American will be getting the career they qualified for, earned and expected. And
Case 2:13-cv-00471-ROS Document 285 Filed 11/25/13 Page 4 of 4
the pilots of the West will be getting a payday, bonus and career beyond their wildest
expectations. I would hope that that would be enough.
But ifnot, then implement the Nicolau and staple me and my peers behind each and every
one of them.
If that's fair though, I'd have to think that it would be equally fair to place a career Ex Parte
or Municipal Court Judge directly into Federal District Court, while giving him/her
immediate senior status and waiving the Senate confirmation requirements in the process.
Thank you for your consideration,
Sincerely,

- James H. Anderson
Captain, hired June 21, 1989

.::..--
 
What a bunch of mindless minutia.^^^^^^^^^^^





"Yes, the East offered the NIC. They just wanted to protect their retirement attrition, which stalled by the change in Age-60. Looking back, that offer must look like a home run to any West pilot right now, but last February the EAST MEC and ALPA couldn’t get to first base with it."





"Our former MEC and our union leadership played a very high stakes game of poker by not dealing at Wye River. Freund was right, we were risking everything…..and right now, it looks like we lost. They need to take responsibility for that."




Should have taken the NIC when we offered it to you!
 
CactusPilot1 said:
It's on your plate. Enjoy it.
Click to expand...
Geez my toast comes with a side of one year upgrades, new hires in wide body's and very nice upward movement..........sorry son yours only comes with an order of sand for a long time, to bad you did not order the grand slam at Wye River.



You can't fix stupid!


Seriously, now you are embarrassing yourself again..........Dave and Russ know!
 
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