2015 Pilot Discussion.

[Phoenix]

It is hardly a "legal assumption".
 
Every court that has reviewed our case has "explicitly" confirmed that a union is bound to the contracts of the predecessor union.  They have also "explicitly" confirmed that the union is free to negotiate new contracts under the penaly of DFR.  The uscaba was found guilty of DFR violation for its failure to use the Nic in the MOU, and was never successful in changing the status quo at LCC that they inherited.
 
Therefore, the Nic will be used in the current SLI as it is the only accepted system seniority list at LCC prior to the AMR merger.
 
In other words, the status quo at LCC is the Nic with seperate ops.  End of story.  Now the BOA may give the epsic a leg up on the Nic for maintaining separate ops for a decade, but I highly doubt it, as that same status made the east pilots the lowest paid, worst working conditions, lowest category group of the bunch....and not by a small margin, but a very significant one.

Thanks for clearing that up. "Bound to former contracts"...

Can you now enlighten us about "all former agreements are a nullity"...

Never mind. You missed my point... Technical legalities aren't front and center to the BOA (remember a court said the West was not legally entitled to a committee, yet the BOA gave you one). A court said USAPA was obligated to advocate for the Nic (yet the BOA ignored that and let all three sides argue whatever they want--former union, successor union, no union.. matters not). The legal conclusions (of the courts) regarding The West were rejected by the BOA. The legal conclusions (of the courts) regarding the East were rejected by the BOA.

The BOA standard is "fair and equitable" not "legally compelled inevitability with blinders on regardless of the impact".

Let's see what happens. So far the BOA hasn't been impressed with the courts anymore than I have been. 😀. Keep telling the BOA about the wonderful court opinions (from your assumed prejudices) and maybe you'll convert them into court-o-philes too (with you and the other jurist groupies).

Let's be blunt... There is no legal conclusion about the Nic. There is no legal conclusion about what the three sides can propose. The BOA alone gets to make all the conclusions. It's not complicated. It will be fair and equitable in their eyes, and in the eyes of the courts (because the courts don't have any more say than you or I).

We will live happily ever after. Get used to it now!!

 

[luvthe9]

We will live happily ever after. Get used to it now!!

Good post............except NIC free goes after the first sentence........

 

[Claxon]

It seems your recollection of historic fact is as short as your stature.
 
When the court battles started we were all ALPA and the east MEC sued the West MEC in the federal court for the District of Columbia.
 
I guess you also missed the whole thing during the court battles that  determined that a union inherits the predecessor union's duties and contracts.
 
Oh, and go ahead and stick your fingers in your ears and say la la la la la while you read the rest of my post.
 
The SCAB union was found guilty of DFR and the Nic is gonna be the starting point in the current SLI.
 
 
Enjoy the movie!

Maybe all the west pilots can get a big hall and rent A Bridge Too Far while Sully races to the top of the charts. Mark Peeper can explain to the wives how TOGA thrust magically restores a destroyed engine to full power, and how he would have flown into JFK. west pilots could have saved b-17 aircraft in WW2 simply by applying firewall power when those engines were shot out.
Now, NoNic4us explains how the Nic came out on 2007, is in effect yet still is nowhere to be seen in 2016-a few weeks away.
The Desert Island is a magical land, full of fairy dust and denial. CB53 tells tall tales, and the west pilots throw away their futures for ties. Marty has made quite a franchise bilking the gullible.
Merry Christmas! On to another No Nic year. Just like the other years.

 

[Claxon]

Sully is an upcoming American biographical drama film directed by Clint Eastwood and written by Todd Komarnicki, based on the autobiography Highest Duty by Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger with Jeffrey Zaslow. The film stars Tom Hanks, Aaron Eckhart, Laura Linney, Holt McCallany, Jamey Sheridan, and Jerry Ferrara.

 

[Claxon]

First and foremost, plaintiffs cannot explain, nor do they try, how irreparable injury follows from this Court’s finding that there is no injury at all. As this Court already determined, because no seniority term exists, because it has yet to be negotiated, there is no harm, hence the case is not ripe. Addington v. US Airline Pilots Ass’n, 606 F.3d 1174, at *10 (9th Cir. 2010) (“We conclude that this case presents contingencies that could prevent effectuation of USAPA's proposal and the accompanying injury”). And, in making the lack of injury determination, this Court necessarily rejected plaintiffs’ theory of their case that a failure to implement a predecessor union’s proposal – one even the former union was free to drop – is somehow a violation of the duty of fair representation. Id. at *14, n.3 (“USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was its predecessor”). Hence, under the law of this case, that bare possibility cannot constitute injury now, or ever. Second, plaintiffs admit that it is merely speculative (“it might”) that the imagined harm, a date of hire seniority term, is ever negotiated, ratified, and executed. Stays may be denied even with a showing of irreparable harm, but without such showing denial is required. Chrysler LLC, 129 S. Ct. 2275 (2009)

4




They claim that the Supreme Court would reverse because, “this case will encourage other unions to refuse, in bad faith, to implement an arbitrated seniority integration” (DktEntry 52 at 1-2), when this Court has already found the Nicolau arbitration was merely “the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA.” Addington, 606 F.3d 1174, at *15, n.3. But there is no arbitration that USAPA was ever a party to anywhere in this record. And the district court properly dismissed (and plaintiffs did not appeal) the removed state claim, which asserted the pilots themselves were a party. There not only is no ‘federally mandated’ arbitration, there is no arbitration at all, merely a predecessor union’s bargaining proposal.



Plaintiffs also claim that this Court’s disposition would “thwart important federal labor policy – evidenced by the 2007 passage of the McCaskill-Bond bill”(DktEntry 52 at 2).3 But there is no dispute, let alone any claim, that McCaskill is not applicable, nor could it be for several reasons, procedural as well assubstantive. Even if McCaskill were applicable, arbitration is not mandatory, rather, as plaintiffs concede, only utilized, ‘if necessary.’ Plaintiffs’ McCaskill argument is a red-herring.

 

[Claxon]

Your thoughts CB53?

 

[EastUS1]

Yea...not "melting down" so much. I'm on vacation, and it got to 65F in SW Missouri. Listing an aircraft for sale, had lunch with a good friend, bought a gun safe for myself for Christmas, had a ice cold IPA & now watching Wheeler Dealers on Velocity Channel.

1549 will be one Eastwood movie that I will likely miss. Don't get me wrong. I think Sully & Skiles did a good job.

It's the aftermath of using Sully's new found fame to somehow ridiculously convince a jury that USAPA was innocent of DFR charges (WHICH THEY ULTIMATELY WERE). What a moronic plan. Was that El Presidente Cleary's idea??

Would you care for me to post what El Presidente Cleary said about FINAL & BINDING arbitration (again)?

 
Here's an honest suggestion ref "Listing an aircraft for sale": If you're truly on vacation, then leave ALL business issues at home, otherwise one's never really on vacation at all. There are over 7 billion people alive today. Find one you can trust to handle such things in your absence.
 
"You'se" choice on missing a movie that will doubtless be much talked about in aviation circles?...Well.... No need to feel at all embarassed that your only reason for doing so is nothing more than some petulant child's response to not being able to magically make yourself "senior" to the people depicted in the movie. No worries though; it's without any possible doubt the film will utterly fail due the absence of some few hundred self-styled "spartans" that just couldn't stand to see it. I can only pity "you'se" in all future conversations with any normal (or even at least somewhat rational) people that, since you're at least a supposed "pilot", might wish to discuss it with you. Just tell them that Sulley's actually an awfull man bereft of any personal "Integrity" because he didn't support your nic quest, and I'm sure they'll all immediately "understand" your position....especially if any of them are psychiatrists specializing in the treatment of troubled children. Be sure to include a mighty roar of "This is Sparta!" for best affect there.
 
Lastly;  all AWA/"This is Sparta!" fantasies of the nic-uber-alles rest solely on the seemingly absurd assumption that the panel of arbs will unquestionably see the true "value" of PHX as actually being the "Jewel in the Crown" of the world's largest airline....Otherwise, "you'se" are pretty much outta' luck with any/all of your rancid BS.  None can know at this point. Only time will tell.

 

[cactusboy53]

Buzz...buzzz....click...click....buzzzz....kind of like a gnat.

 

[EastUS1]

Buzz...buzzz....click...click....buzzzz....kind of like a gnat.

 
"....especially if any of them are psychiatrists specializing in the treatment of troubled children. Be sure to include a mighty roar of "This is Sparta!" for best affect there."  I suppose that "Buzz...buzzz....click...click....buzzzz...." would make an equally and very favorable case for you there though.
 
No matter really. Your passive-aggressive, childish wimp factor's already well established. The rest is in the hands of arbitrators that you've not the slightest control over, nor any better notions than everyone else as to how they will decide things...and some "vacation" you must be having to yet obsess over this thread's nonsense. I must honestly feel sorry for you now.

 

[EastUS1]

 
If I were to be asked about "Sully" during a holiday party, I would not squirm at all.
 

 
Given all the Crew News presentations: How would anyone be supposed to even recognize "you'se" without the trademark flitting hands, high-pitched-girly voice and always-obsequious squirming anyway?
 
"If I were to be asked about "Sully" during a holiday party, I would not squirm at all." I'd guess "not squirm at all" would be something new for you, if even offerred a question, so perhaps some "spartan medal of valor" sholuld be affixed to your ridiculous T-shirts.
 
"You'se" are in all ways a true "spartan soldier"....and thanks to all your sorry sort for the continuing laughs "you'se" so dependably provide. 😉

 

[EastUS1]

nic4us: "Your penis envy is evident, and lets just say....little Mike is even shorter than little Mike."

 
Well, then.  That begs the question:  And how do YOU know this?

 
 
NYC?....I'd suggest some "politically correct" caution there, since we might otherwise find ourselves soon sued for not baking some "spartan soldier" couple's wedding cake....Just sayin'....

 

[nic4us]

Now, NoNic4us explains how the Nic came out on 2007, is in effect yet still is nowhere to be seen in 2016-a few weeks away.
The Desert Island is a magical land, full of fairy dust and denial. CB53 tells tall tales, and the west pilots throw away their futures for ties. Marty has made quite a franchise bilking the gullible.
Merry Christmas! On to another No Nic year. Just like the other years.

 
"nowhere to be seen"??
 
Your idol worship of Holt has clouded your situation awareness.
 
I saw the Nic in every SLI committee proposal, including the epsic proposal.  Yep, the Nic is the only list "in effect" for all intents and purposes for the former LCC pilots.

 

[nic4us]

Thanks for clearing that up. "Bound to former contracts"...

Can you now enlighten us about "all former agreements are a nullity"...

Never mind. You missed my point... Technical legalities aren't front and center to the BOA (remember a court said the West was not legally entitled to a committee, yet the BOA gave you one). A court said USAPA was obligated to advocate for the Nic (yet the BOA ignored that and let all three sides argue whatever they want--former union, successor union, no union.. matters not). The legal conclusions (of the courts) regarding The West were rejected by the BOA. The legal conclusions (of the courts) regarding the East were rejected by the BOA.

The BOA standard is "fair and equitable" not "legally compelled inevitability with blinders on regardless of the impact".

Let's see what happens. So far the BOA hasn't been impressed with the courts anymore than I have been. 😀. Keep telling the BOA about the wonderful court opinions (from your assumed prejudices) and maybe you'll convert them into court-o-philes too (with you and the other jurist groupies).

Let's be blunt... There is no legal conclusion about the Nic. There is no legal conclusion about what the three sides can propose. The BOA alone gets to make all the conclusions. It's not complicated. It will be fair and equitable in their eyes, and in the eyes of the courts (because the courts don't have any more say than you or I).

We will live happily ever after. Get used to it now!!

 
 
You must have missed the 9th circuit's ruling that uscaba violated its DFR, and that the east pilots should no longer be the beneficiaries of an illegal union action.
 
Other than that a lot of your full of false facts and assumptions post makes sense. For instance, no court said the west was not "legally entitled to a committee", and the BOA has followed the court rulings and not allowed uscaba to even be a part of the SLI.
 
I believe the BOA will follow the "fair and equitable" standard, and follow the 9th's advice.

 

[Phoenix]

 
 
You must have missed the 9th circuit's ruling that uscaba violated its DFR, and that the east pilots should no longer be the beneficiaries of an illegal union action.
 
Other than that a lot of your full of false facts and assumptions post makes sense. For instance, no court said the west was not "legally entitled to a committee", and the BOA has followed the court rulings and not allowed uscaba to even be a part of the SLI.
 
I believe the BOA will follow the "fair and equitable" standard, and follow the 9th's advice.

 
 
You are still at it... always guessing the future.. making your predictions (again without your famous T-minus clock). 
 
You cling to the hope the BOA will defer to your beliefs about what courts intended between the lines, or what laws really apply.  Good luck!! THE BOA HAS NEVER made a decision base on a court opinion or ruling.  THE BOA HAS NEVER made a ruling based on the West legal arguments.  THE BOA HAS NEVER made a ruling based on the East legal arguments.  Yet, the West Committee (and you) keep pitching the same strategy based upon legal arguments (assumed, presumed, or actually real--at least in your own mind). 
 
"Fair and equitable" is the only standard the BOA has deferred to, and despite West persistence in a legal strategy for the Nic, I suspect the BOA will continue to be true to themselves, only deferring to their own opinion as to what is "fair and equitable".  
 
Maybe the BOA will give you the Nic exactly as is.  But if they do, they will not likely use a legal premise (for the first time).   Instead, they will state it by saying, "We, the BOA, find the Nic is fair and equitable as is.  No bumbled, tortured court opinions influenced us.  No vacated jury decision influenced us.  No legal argument influenced us.  We, the BOA, just love how precient Mr. Nicolau was about this merger oh so many years before it was known to us mere mortals, and we are amazed at its perfect fairness and equity."
 
P.S. If you are going to persist in the legal strategy for the Nic (founded upon the 2005 TA), when are you going to explain away the contractually binding term.. "nullity".    I am all ears... because you are entertaining!!

 

[Phoenix]

 
"nowhere to be seen"??
 
Your idol worship of Holt has clouded your situation awareness.
 
I saw the Nic in every SLI committee proposal, including the epsic proposal.  Yep, the Nic is the only list "in effect" for all intents and purposes for the former LCC pilots.

 
You see the Nic everywhere.  
 
You have "Nic" in your screen name, and you probably have "Nic" tattooed on the inside of your eyelids so you can stare at Nic every time you blink, and all night while you dream.