514 No longer endorsing tentative agreement

No Bob - not saying that at all.

It's the union's job to keep their people from the bright lights of management, whether it be from settling a pissing match that got out of hand between members to giving a relatively gentle nudge when necessary. So to speak, where the union may use a cattle prod to restore order, the company tends to use a shotgun and blast not only the person with the problem but everyone else in the general "area". Far better that the company not be involved at any level unless whatever the situation may be has gone too far and there's no option.

What you are talking about there is mismanagement, not management.
If someone doesnt do their job and management doesnt say anything thats mismanagement as well.

That's acknowledgement by the employees' representation that a contract is a very sharp sword that is double-edged.

Not sure what you mean by that. Could you elaborate?

Whenever representation can deal with any problem effectively out of management's sight, management believes there are no problems and things run smoother.

In an ideal world, but do we really want there to be no problems associated with working under a concessionary contract?
 
What you are talking about there is mismanagement, not management.
If someone doesnt do their job and management doesnt say anything thats mismanagement as well.
See the next item.


Not sure what you mean by that. Could you elaborate?
Easy, Bob - Per the contract, for "$X", the company gets "Y" work. In turn, the company is expected to manage its business in a manner that sees to the needs of employees and shareholders - as it is, they do neither.
In an ideal world, but do we really want there to be no problems associated with working under a concessionary contract?
In an ideal world, the company wouldn't have inflated the workforce to keep the so-called "Union" happy with additional dues collection and diluting the money available to pay the workers, either.
 
In an ideal world, the company wouldn't have inflated the workforce to keep the so-called "Union" happy with additional dues collection and diluting the money available to pay the workers, either.
You seem to think that there is a set amount the company has for the workers an thats it. That if we reduced the amount of workers that the company would make the extra money available to those that remain however thats not, and never was, the case.

From 2001 to 2010 the company cut around 40,000 jobs, over 4000 in Title 1 alone. Their labor costs plummetted. Over that same period of time their Revenue increased by billions of dollars, so we have a lot less employees and a lot more money coming in but the company is insisting on a Zero cost contract.
 
You seem to think that there is a set amount the company has for the workers an thats it. That if we reduced the amount of workers that the company would make the extra money available to those that remain howver thats not, and never was the case.

From 2001 to 2010 the company cut around 40,000 jobs, over 4000 in Title 1 alone. Their labor costs plummetted. Over that same period of time their Revenue increased by billions of dollars, so we have a lot less employees and a lot more money coming in but the company is insisting on a Zero cost contract.
You missed my point, Bob.

What I had said was the company has a dollar amount they will pay for aircraft maintenance labor. Say, f'r'instance, it's $10 (just to keep the zeros at bay). That amount, as defined by our friendly neighborhood bean counters, is set in stone. The amount is then given to the bargaining agent (an extremely loose reference to the TWU).

Suppose that only one person is really necessary to accomplish the particular maintenance tasks - that individual could be paid that $10 figure or, more than likely, less if the company is particularly good at playing poker with the lives of others.

Now, suppose that while that so-called "bargaining agent" has no problem with the dollar amount, it's quite evident one individual won't be paying more than thew 2 hours pay per month in dues. This can be offset by the agent demanding additional personnel which in all truth are not necessary for the maintenance function but certainly contribute dues to the agent.

One individual making $10 (paying 2 hours pay per month in dues) or four individuals making $2.50 and all paying the same 2 hours pay in dues. The agent has every incentive to increase the population for the benefit of his pocket and since finances aren't the best for many companies, AMR included, in steps the concessionary contract. The company holds the line on their amount paid for maintenance, and the agent's charges are happy that their buddies are being brought back into the fold from RIF status - and nobody questions the ulterior motives of the supposed "representation".

Until that agent crosses the line (which I personally believe has finally happened), all will coninue to be fat and happy, bad mouthing the company for not giving away what the agent's charges expect, and a resounding chorus of "We'll get 'em next time" will be heard throughout the facility.

I cannot speak for your group and the line maintenance as I'm not there. I can speak for the TULE maintenance facility, however. From what I see (with few exceptions), 50% of the represented personnel could be RIFed, assuming the remainder would do something productive during their daily tour for 5 to 6 hours of an eight hour shift.

Now, to your question.

No - I am not under any impression the company would give us a damned thing re: pay and benefits but I do believe with the professional negotiators that I keep hearing about doing their job and producing facts and figures to support the union's people, much better could be had than this mess referred to as a TA we're voting on now. That's the function of the negotiator.

We simply cannot maintain the people number we have and expect to rake in in wage and benefit gains we want when the money pool is a finite amount.

This attitude is to our benefit and the benefit of those who might be RIFed as a result of actually running American like a real for-profit business instead of a union and corporate piggy bank. Those laid off would eventually have a good job to return to and retire from rather than what is in place today.

As I said before in another post - I am not taking the company's side, rather, I am taking OUR side - the side of those who work for wages.
 
You missed my point, Bob.

What I had said was the company has a dollar amount they will pay for aircraft maintenance labor. Say, f'r'instance, it's $10 (just to keep the zeros at bay). That amount, as defined by our friendly neighborhood bean counters, is set in stone.

Set in stone? Nothing is set in stone, sure they would like us to beleive that because it stregnthens their bargaining position but its simply not true. They set a number they desire and tell us its set in stone then we negotiate. Its an objective, nothing more. If the number that they were going to pay for maintenence labor was set in stone then we would be making $43/hr. Figure they set the number in stone back in 2003, we had 14000 making $62k= $868 million for aircraft maint labor, now we are down to 9500, so divide that 9500 into $868million then by 2080 and it comes out to $44/hr. Obviously the number isnt set in stone. "Set in stone" is a lie the company (and some union) negotiatiators use to try and make it seem like they cant move from their concessionary position.


No - I am not under any impression the company would give us a damned thing re: pay and benefits but I do believe with the professional negotiators that I keep hearing about doing their job and producing facts and figures to support the union's people, much better could be had than this mess referred to as a TA we're voting on now. That's the function of the negotiator.

OK. What professional negotiators?

We simply cannot maintain the people number we have and expect to rake in in wage and benefit gains we want when the money pool is a finite amount.

Yes but our share is variable within that finite amount. If you look at the 10Ks (or 8K) you can see that it seems that various vendors that the airlines are dealing with seem to be taking turns with double digit increases, they are charging more for less, labor is pretty much the only thing that keeps going down. For several years the airports were jacking up landings fees, that resulted in total landing fees paid going up despite the fact that the number of landings went down, last quarters release showed that YOY most bank fees went up by double digits . Sure most peopel buy their tickets with credit cards and the airline pays a fee for that but the airline also paid more in interest to the banks despite lower debt. What the airlines are doing is shrinking our slice of the pie while giving everyone else a bigger piece, a much bigger piece because revenues are up as well. Every time somebody else takes more they just assume they will get it from us.

This attitude is to our benefit and the benefit of those who might be RIFed as a result of actually running American like a real for-profit business instead of a union and corporate piggy bank. Those laid off would eventually have a good job to return to and retire from rather than what is in place today.

Again I dont know what goes on in Tulsa but the fact is it has shrunk by 26% and appears to continue to shrink. The company determines the headcount, they currently have over 1000 people who dont have system protection, they could announce a layoff tomorrow and there's nothing in the contract to prevent that.

I agree with you in that 'm not a believer in working for less to save jobs, what you always end up with is less pay and less wcoworkers anyway, I agree that the best thing we can do for our laid off bretheren is to keep the wages and benifits desirable, this way they have something good to come back to but I dissagree that once a bean counter sets a number thats it, bean counters write down all sorts of numbers, thats why they have erasers.
 
Your last sentence is what I was saying - the bean counters aren't bright enought to understand anything but a pile of numbers. Their intent is to hold the line on exspenses (except for themselves) and not allow the rabble any of what they deserve by finding a willing partner (such as the TWU) to rma their policies down our throats.

Yes - flexibility is the key however - a businessperson would understand this. CPAs in elevated position believe their words are approaching the importance of the four Gospels.
 
Your last sentence is what I was saying - the bean counters aren't bright enought to understand anything but a pile of numbers. Their intent is to hold the line on exspenses (except for themselves) and not allow the rabble any of what they deserve by finding a willing partner (such as the TWU) to rma their policies down our throats.

Yes - flexibility is the key however - a businessperson would understand this. CPAs in elevated position believe their words are approaching the importance of the four Gospels.

Well the sad part is that we are making it work for them. We can question their intellect but at the end of the day they still took and continue to take money out of our pockets and put in in theirs with our consent.
 

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