514 No longer endorsing tentative agreement

[Duke787]

http://jobsearch.usajobs.gov/search.aspx?q=aircraft%20mechanic&where=tinker%20afb&pg=1&rad=20&rad_units=miles&re=0

http://www.tradingmarkets.com/news/stock-alert/air_okc-labor-market-tight-for-aircraft-mechanics-1090086.html


If the worst case scenario happens, and we go on strike, and AA close's TUL, there are jobs not to far away in OKC............$21 to $26 an hour. I bet the AA guys from TUL will have no problem getting a job there.

It's nice to have a plan B.

 

[1AA]

If Tinker is paying 21 to 26 an hour why hire in at AA as an OSM or SMA? If this T/A passes and AA wants to hire SMA's they would have a hard time with Tinker and AAR in the competition.

 

[Bob Owens]

If Tinker is paying 21 to 26 an hour why hire in at AA as an OSM or SMA? If this T/A passes and AA wants to hire SMA's they would have a hard time with Tinker and AAR in the competition.

Over the next few years the situation with A&Ps is likely to become critical, I know we've heard this for years but just look around, see anybody without grey hair? Over half of us at AA are over 50. In my local we dont have anyone under 30.

Over the last five years more than half the A&P schools have closed. So there is no new supply. If crappy outfits like AAR are paying wages close to AA then those places are no longer a source of experienced workers for AA.

When I got hired you had to have 5 years experience on heavy turbine aircraft, the fact is when AA starts hiring they will be competing with other carriers that offer better pay and benifits, because they will be hiring as well.

When NWA and DAL merged they didnt lay off any mechanics, CAL and UAL now say dont expect to be laying off any either. None of them can afford to lose them because they are old over there as well. The younger generation has no interest in this, the children of aircraft mechanics would be the most likely source but I doubt and aircraft mechanic would recommend this to their kids.

Recently AA announced that they were closing a base, yet they say there are sufficient openings in the system to absorb those that are willing to move.

 

[TWU informer]

Bob you underestimate the Democrats willingness to make the illegal immigrant legal. There will be plenty of them that the Government will train in exchange for amnesty. Maintenance Manuals can be printed in Spanish too Bob.

Take heart though Bob, those workers will fund your Social Security that those same Democrats have already spent of your funds, and they will also fund your Retirement from AA so it's not all bad.

But I think it a bit foolish to keep pretending we are more than just a number and cannot easily be replaced. I am not following another off that cliff. I just thank the Northwest A&P's for exposing the truth before someone like you led me off the cliff.

Illegals to be Legal

The unions want illegals here to give them more union members. More members create more union dues and we can’t forget the cheap labor. The Dream Act sounds like our immigration law which requires immigrants to apply for a visa, blue card or green card. You know, the law these illegal immigrants break because criminals seldom follow the laws.

These individuals will make great future Democrats. Only Democrats think you can break laws then demand rights. Just what America needs, more victim vendors inside our borders. This is why Harry Reid and Democrats support amnesty for illegal immigrants. Criminals tend to like criminals.

Don't think for one minute that if a critical shotage of AMT's happens as Bob predicts that politicians will not jump at the chance to create more from the illegal worker pool.

 

[Duke787]

Bob you underestimate the Democrats willingness to make the illegal immigrant legal. There will be plenty of them that the Government will train in exchange for amnesty. Maintenance Manuals can be printed in Spanish too Bob.

Take heart though Bob, those workers will fund your Social Security that those same Democrats have already spent of your funds, and they will also fund your Retirement from AA so it's not all bad.

But I think it a bit foolish to keep pretending we are more than just a number and cannot easily be replaced. I am not following another off that cliff. I just thank the Northwest A&P's for exposing the truth before someone like you led me off the cliff.



Don't think for one minute that if a critical shotage of AMT's happens as Bob predicts that politicians will not jump at the chance to create more from the illegal worker pool.

The Informer seems to forget that President Reagan granted amnisty to the illegals.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128303672

Plus if AA needed more A&P's AA would just open another school like they did in the 90s. AA opened a A&P school at Midway airport Chicago, and a bunch of our FSC's went and got A&P's and transfered right into maint. no experiance required sense they were already TWU members, some that came through that school are good and some aren't, that's how we got Gilboy into maint.

I do agree with the informer that we can be replaced and it has been proven.

 

[Tex-Mech]

and a bunch of our FSC's went and got A&P's and transfered right into maint. no experiance required sense they were already TWU members, some that came through that school are good and some aren't, that's how we got Gilboy into maint.

So Gilboy was a upgrade bag smasher--that explains a lot of his sellout ability.

 

[TWU informer]

So Gilboy was a upgrade bag smasher--that explains a lot of his sellout ability.

There are upgraded fleet service clerks that were AMFA Organizers and are currently AMP supporters.

You guys need to remember that for every guy you ridicule for something there are others that are offended but yet will still support your cause.

Of course I am just an unlicensed welder that gets your wrath on a regular basis, what would I know.

 

[ReadyNow]

Over the next few years the situation with A&Ps is likely to become critical, I know we've heard this for years but just look around, see anybody without grey hair? Over half of us at AA are over 50. In my local we dont have anyone under 30.

The Military continues to train thousands of aircraft mechanics who then gain the required experience in the military and are then able to take and pass the A and P exams.

 

[Bob Owens]

And how many would be ready to show up in 30 days and be able to work our aircraft effeciently, effectively and be in compliance? People seem to forget the difficulty AA is having in just keeping their certification with what they have. Could you imagine what it would be like if they brought in all new people who are unfamiliar with our policies and proceedures?

NWA started preparing and training 18 months in advance. AA has not, there is no pool of people standing by at present, if there was then AAR would have their 100 vacancies filled. Does that mean that there is no chance that the company could replace us, no, but it would take time and money, and AA has not invested the time or the money like NWA did.

Lets look at just one station, JFK. We have MD-80, 737, 757, 767 and 777 aircraft in this station, each one requires a 40 hour Gen Fam, and a 40 hour Avionics and a 8 hr LMP along with assorted other training qualifications. So you have to figure around 600 hours of training before you have a fully qualified Line Maint Mechanic. Thats over three months of training. Could it be done? The question is would it be worth what it would cost AA? If we were asking for $60/hr it might be, but if we arent even asking for what SWA is paying then its not.

Everyone can and will be replaced eventually, thats the way its always been, but that doesnt mean that we have no leverage and that we cannnnot effectively do what has been done before.

NWA did not have it easy, the fact is the airline did not survive the long term, they were bought out by Delta. If busting the mechanics was so easy then why are Fed Ex , UPS and SWA all paying their guys over $40/hr?

 

[The Goose]

... snip
If busting the mechanics was so easy then why are Fed Ex , UPS and SWA all paying their guys over $40/hr?

Bob:

I betcha ,of the entities you named, few are keeping unnecessary personnel on their payrolls to satisfy their union's need to collect dues as American does for their pet union. Odds are, those you mentioned actually have relatively competent people running their business, not a bunch of bean counters as we have.

Every station/facility in the American Airlines network has its share of slugs protected by by the TWU in order to collect dues each month. At one time or another, we've all laid down on the job and you know it but not as a regular pastime at work. Those making a career of nothing are the problems.

Considering the amount of deadwood on the payroll, it's no great wonder we keep being handed concessionary contracts - it costs quite a bit to keep those people employed and we are paying for it. This is what I've meant in the past by saying a union contract cuts both ways. Granted, the company doesn't seem to be very interested in doing their own job as evidenced by the "management" groups on the property.

I've worked other places (union shops) where a steward or the equivalent of an E-board member would dress down a slacker in front of God and everyone else simply because their continual laziness was costing everyone money. If the company chose to tolerate that lack of action, they'd hire more people and dilute the funds available for raises/benefits and the union knew it. Why are we putting up with this when the TWU is the only beneficiary?

HR needs to grow a set and start tending the garden and the TWU (or hopefully AMP) will understand what's going on and why we can't move past a piss-poor TA as was handed us for approval. I still believe that with 60% of the present AMT workforce, both in the shops and hangers, and assuming they could be motivated (not threatened with termination), nobody wouldn't have to break a sweat during the course of a day excepting, perhaps, the people in the hangers during the summer.

Unfortunately, what I outlined requires a set of balls to accomplish and, with respect to those who could make this happen, they haven't one to share amongst themselves and with regard to the TWU, the International has no incentive the straighten out their creation as it's quite profitable.

If the company and union (AMP) begin running American as a real business instead of corporate/TWU piggy bank a number of things would happen:
1.) Costs would go down (as would the employee count), freeing more money for the raises in pay and improvements to benefits we desire.

2 American Airlines could once again be a viable corporation.

3 Should there actually ever be a paring of personnel, those laid off will have something that's worth returning to instead of the present mess.

I have no faith in the TWU's ability to accomplish any of these things as they have no incentive to do so, as I said earlier. I'm not sure about the company's willingness to make any improvement in these areas.

I'm not taking the company's side, much as it sounds that way - I'm taking OUR side. I'm not very pleased with anything re: the present scenario but I do recognize this so-called "management" team and the TWU have seen to their needs quite nicely at our expense and it's time to make some drastic changes.

American doesn't intend to spend more than "X" amount on labor/parts to do overhaul and line work - the higher the number of heads to divide that dollar amount amongst, the thinner the TAs get - that's simple division and exactly why we were presented with a crappy TA (aside from the fact Fat Don didn't make any counter offers).

 

[Just the facts]

Excellent post Goose. Totally agree.

 

[Boomer]

Plus if AA needed more A&P's AA would just open another school like they did in the 90s. AA opened a A&P school at Midway airport Chicago, and a bunch of our FSC's went and got A&P's and transfered right into maint. no experiance required sense they were already TWU members, some that came through that school are good and some aren't, that's how we got Gilboy into maint.

Did they transfer "right into maintenance" as full mechanics or did they transfer into maintenance as Jr. Mechanics?

 

[Boomer]

So Gilboy was a upgrade bag smasher--that explains a lot of his sellout ability.

Tex-Mech,

Much of what we have been programmed with is simply not true.

I was a TWU bag-smasher before I went to school for two years, (five days a week, eight hours a day) and tested out for my A&P certificates.

After certification, I worked full-time for $5.00/hr in GA for a year, while still at AA "smashing bags".

I worked full-time,(and was glad to get paid $15.00/hr to start and $20.00/hr at the end,) at a commuter airline for two additional years, while still at AA "smashing bags" on multiple shifts, doing sheetmetal, avionics, engine changes and pulling birds out of a bone-yard in the desert.

In between the commuter gig and being called up to the big-leagues, for two years I picked up the on-call maintenance for AA, AE and TWA in addition to "smashing-bags" for AA and working the commuter gig.

I did not go to any school affiliated with AA and was told during an interview at LAX in 1995, (after having gone to MD-80 and F-100 schools in DFW and performing on-call maintenance for two years,) that I would still have to go through the Jr. Mechanic Program because I did not have the qualifications to be an Aircraft Mechanic at AA.

It was a "bag-smasher" Local President that kicked in the doors so that some 60 days later I was working in my current station as an AA-AMT.

Since then, I've been appointed a TWU Shop Steward more than once, elected to more than one term as an M&R Local Station Rep(over 200 station members) and recieved appointment by the TWU International: along the way, I helped others complete the process of Self-Determination.

It was the "bag-smasher" Local President that encouraged me in my efforts to force to the TWU to become both more accountable and democratic: and, who ultimately told me that he fully understood why we needed to leave.

At first is was Fleet Service that held back the Maintenance and Related;
then it was the lack of our own Locals that held back Maintenance and Related;
then it was the International preventing Maintenance and Related Locals that held back the Maintenance and Related;
then it was individual Presidents that held back the Maintenance and Related;
then it was Overhaul versus the Line that held back the Maintenance and Related;
it is becoming the A&P versus the non-certificated that will hold back Maintenance and Related;
it is becoming the Retiree versus the active employee that hold back the Maintenance and Related;
it is becoming those that will have Retiree Health Care versus those that do not that hold back the Maintenance and Related.

The issues are the same as they have ever been: we function in a company, a union and a culture without accountability, transparency and honor. Leaving the TWU and going AMP are a demonstrable first step in achieving what is required.

It may be that there are more than a few "bag-smashers" that feel the same, and if so, we should be compelled to help them reach their goals while we reach ours.

 

[Bob Owens]

Excellent post Goose. Totally agree.

That should concern you Goose.

I've never worked at an OH base so I dont know what goes on there, but I've worked several different line operations, both Union and Non-union, and they all had to one degree or another their share of slugs. HR isnt supposed to do the job of our managers. From my observations HRs first response to any inquiry from management is "fire them". Many managers dont want to accept responsibility for anything, "I called HR and thats what they told me to do, dont blame me". BS its their Station, manage it. and follow your own progressive discipline, not go directly to termination.

The fact is when management is doing their job then the Union usually steps in and does what you are saying they should do. The reason is that if they see or hear about someone who is a slug then they know that sometime in the future that slug is going to be a liability for the Local who will tie up a lot of resources over BS. But if management isnt doing their job why would the union do it for them?

Are you saying that if AMP comes in they are going to do managements job? That the union will berate members for not producing enough while management sits back and plays the good guy(from the slugs perspective)? I have no problem going up to a guy and addressing valid complaints from other members or if I see someone headed into trouble . If the boss isnt going to do anything about someone not doing their job I'm not going to step in but if I know the Boss is going to do something, or if he says something to me, then I would, but I'm not going to do managements job.

Boomer, I agree us Grease monkeys should not refer to others as Bag Smashers. I too did a little time in the bellies,(and Stores) anything to get close to the big airplanes. Oh to be young and stupid instead of just stupid!

 

[The Goose]

That should concern you Goose.

I've never worked at an OH base so I dont know what goes on there, but I've worked several different line operations, both Union and Non-union, and they all had to one degree or another their share of slugs. HR isnt supposed to do the job of our managers. From my observations HRs first response to any inquiry from management is "fire them". Many managers dont want to accept responsibility for anything, "I called HR and thats what they told me to do, dont blame me". BS its their Station, manage it. and follow your own progressive discipline, not go directly to termination.

The fact is when management is doing their job then the Union usually steps in and does what you are saying they should do. The reason is that if they see or hear about someone who is a slug then they know that sometime in the future that slug is going to be a liability for the Local who will tie up a lot of resources over BS. But if management isnt doing their job why would the union do it for them?

Are you saying that if AMP comes in they are going to do managements job? That the union will berate members for not producing enough while management sits back and plays the good guy(from the slugs perspective)? I have no problem going up to a guy and addressing valid complaints from other members or if I see someone headed into trouble . If the boss isnt going to do anything about someone not doing their job I'm not going to step in but if I know the Boss is going to do something, or if he says something to me, then I would, but I'm not going to do managements job.
... snip

No Bob - not saying that at all.

It's the union's job to keep their people from the bright lights of management, whether it be from settling a pissing match that got out of hand between members to giving a relatively gentle nudge when necessary. So to speak, where the union may use a cattle prod to restore order, the company tends to use a shotgun and blast not only the person with the problem but everyone else in the general "area". Far better that the company not be involved at any level unless whatever the situation may be has gone too far and there's no option.

That's not doing the job of management - that's doing the job of a union, insulatiing the membership from management's attention. That's acknowledgement by the employees' representation that a contract is a very sharp sword that is double-edged.

Whenever representation can deal with any problem effectively out of management's sight, management believes there are no problems and things run smoother.