AAA ALPA Thread 10/12 to 10/18

[AAA73Pilot]

The East has to admit USAPA is about the Nic award. If it were about money, then I put my cards on the JNC. They have most of the process complete and all of us would see better pay and lifestyle. But this isn't about money, this is about Nic. That is why USAPA is a stupid idea. It is an emotional based response for AAA leaders not managing our expectations.

The JNC? You mean Prater? He is on record as saying he has talked to Doug many times. No, what you're really saying is I want mine now. You would rather have the devil you know, than one you don't know anything about. Hence your posts. USAPA is for the USAirways pilots only.

You can force the majority on the AWA guys, but that is as far as the success will go. So what will we have:
A majority that is happy they won.
A majority that can't really get ahead because the other half will be emotional and bitter and will basically resign on participating.

The sad truth is nobody will "win" to everyones satisfaction. ALPA, USAPA, either way we all lose to some extent. And we still will work for a POS company that operates on the cheap. At least with a new union, we won't have to answer to anybody but ourselves. To me, that is worth its weight in gold.

About 1900 pilots from West will surely not want to pay their share of dues, thus USAPA is supported mostly by East.

It is what we expect and planned for in the short term. Since we are not a SBU, it really doesn't matter yet anyway. BTW. Has any person or entity filed for SBU status yet? I didn't think so.

We start all over on contract talks. Wait 4-5 years while being exposed to a possible merger or wait even better a downturn in the economy.

Pure conjecture. Why do you think that ALPA is trying to "help" the company move to a fast track to get a new combined CBA? Your right a merger is on the horizon. But Doug cannot pull it off as a fractured, divided company. So any merger mania is put on hold for a contract, in as you say 4-5 years. Highly unlikely. But I can wait if need be. In the meantime the east guys still capture the attrition without any of ALPAs "help".

We will have no protection from merger.

We have protection now? With a Constitution and ByLaws that can be interpreted at will. "Guidelines" are not exactly protections. However protections will lie in the contract. Lots of scenarios. What protections did the TWA guys have? ALPA sold them down the river. Check out the DFR lawsuit against ALPA.

We get into lawsuites with AWA ALPA. They have ALPA pockets who will make sure USAPA goes down. In other words they can draw it out or make USAPA settle due to lack of cash.

Maybe, then again maybe not.

We get assesments because the union can't afford the lawsuits.

If you would take the time to educate yourself from some other source than this web board you would know the status of USAPA

How much does USAPA have in the bank? Are they willing to show the voters the bank statement? Just curious. I mean if it is a real pilots union lets have some transparency and
let off on the disinformation tactics.

WOW!!! Just curious, how transparent is ALPA? With all those closed meetings, secret talks with Doug, ad nauseaum. My guess is you really are not interested in learning anything about USAPA. If you were you wouldn't be posting such ludicrous and obviously slanted pro ALPA posts. If you are really on the US East list, join the website forum. You are eligible. Then get back to me.

Unless you have been an ostritch for the last 5 months and just now pulled your head out of the sand, you would have known the answers to all those questions. But if you really were interested, you could have easily called any USAPA leader. They would be more than willing to answer all of your questions.

Finally, I am now suspecting you do not work for USAirways east. The objections you post to USAPA have been discussed here over and over. You could have easily verified any of those posts on the USAPA website. But then you wouldn't believe it due to your already firm opinions about USAPA. Sigh, an ALPA supporter who despises ALPA. Sad, so very sad.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Only a few in ALPA are on full time flight pay loss (MEC officers) and in senior positions in Washington (officers). Line pilots currently run the vast majority of ALPA functions (Capt and F/O reps and committee volunteers) on their days off.

That's a joke, right? Few people? Not on your life. The MEC, LEC, committees such as MC, JNC, plus the attendant support people are all on flight pay loss. Depending on the type of meeting. Then the "special projects" people. Maybe the lesser committee members are on days off but most definitely not the leadership. Also some of them are able to double and even triple their monthly pay. Resort hotels, limos and very expensive wines all reimbursed. No wonder it's a cushy job. Who wouldn't want to hold on to it?

USAPA is destined to become a mirror image of ALPA if it gets established.

Not on your life. Our structure will not even come close to the ALPA structure. Mirror image? What USAPA supporter ever said that? I didn't and never have!

The only solution I can see is to get rid of the concept of a bottom up association and establish a real top down union. The issues facing all of us today do not lend themselves to this pilot notion of "everybody participate if you want change." Pilots won't do that. Never have and never will. Only a few do and mostly when they have a contract to vote on. So why not think differently and establish a real union?

Because a real union is what we SUPPOSEDLY already have. It doesn't work. It already is a top down union. Hence you see senior people wondering how we can screw the junior people again. I want mine now, you can get yours later. Sorry, have been hearing all about it for 20 years. Luckily a lot of the senior people understand the need to change. Hence we have a very large contingent of senior pilots supporting USAPA. As for participation, you are sadly misinformed. I have posted many times about the voting requirements required by the membership. Some issues will require a super majority for passing. Others may only need a simple majority. Hence you have the pilots "Bill of Rights". Any issue affecting it will trigger the super majority. Want to take a chance your voice will not be heard? LEC meetings off airport property that makes it almost impossible to attend meetings. USAPA will tape meetings and have them available to all. If you don't want to take the time to participate, then that is your choice.

 

[EastUS]

Translation: I'm outta here, but who cares if the knee-jerk reactions of the USAPA crowd salt the earth for those who come after me. By the time the real bills come due for these misguided actions, I'll be long gone sipping something cool on the beach.

Golly Gee....Wish that you would/could make up your mind. First, from the bulk of your previous posts; I'm trying to run roughshod over your I-want-yours "Righteous Position" out west for my own personal benefit, and now? = I'm just someone skipping out of the party. Your "logic" serves to confuse me somewhat.

"but who cares if the knee-jerk reactions of the USAPA crowd salt the earth for those who come after me" I very much care..that's the whole point of wanting to see Alpo gone. I'm earnestly hoping that things will be considerably improved by that last for all concerned. That's honestly the whole point for me. Nic hardly puts me personally in any hole.

For me? = It's about the continual erosion of the pay, benefits and status of pilots over the long haul that I've seen under Alpo. The Nic fiasco, and the internecine "warfare" between our two groups at present merely serves to highlight just how dysfunctional Alpo is at being any "union". Were I you?...I'd be more wary of "translating" any thoughts of others. Translating isn't the same as projecting one's own notions and values...and it's not "all about me" in my book.

Believe it or not; I'm even hoping that you would/will have a better career future than it otherwsie looks to shape up under Alpo.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Hence you have the pilots "Bill of Rights". Any issue affecting it will trigger the super majority.

Bill of Rights? As in protecting the seniority rights of all? Well, here's the problem: my seniority rights became a VESTED EXPECTANCY once the Nic Award was published. That means every West pilot has a legal claim to the rights and benefits inherent within a seniority list (read: bidding and furlough in reverse seniority). ALPA already has recognized this fact which is why they have stated on numerous occassions that nothing can be done other than to support and defend the award. Furthermore, should the impossible happen and USAPA actually wins an election, then guess what...USAPA inherits all obligations from its predecessor because USAPA would be what's termed a successor in interest. Everyone besides the USAPA ostriches knows that USAPA cannot rewrite that which is not rewritable. The sole purpose for USAPA is built on a legal claim that conveniently ignores the fact that USAPA is inheriting the results of a binding arbitration. I noticed in your USAPA letter that your counsel ignored that little tidbit. Seaham is correct in that seniority is a creature of contract, but this is a merger and in this merger it was contractually agreed to determine seniority via an arbitration process in which all parties agreed to be bound to the result. Game, set, match. That's the giant difference between this situation and the UAL case cited by your counsel and it doesn't take a legal scholar to understand that there isn't a Federal court anywhere that would allow the arbitration process to be turned upside down by an obscure legal argument like Seaham proposes. If you think otherwise, then keep pumping in your own money to try to get USAPA elected. Trust me, you'll be met squarely in the face by a legal bazooka from the West.

 

[luvn737s]

Many supporters of AWA's failed in-house union attempt have become leaders within AWA ALPA. Why have we not seen a recall effort to replace the AAA MEC with USAPA supporters? One would think with all the presumed support USAPA has, a coup would be a cake-walk. Or is it that AAA MEC and USAPA are two sides of the same coin, both needing the other to retain relevance?

 

[EastUS]

Bill of Rights? As in protecting the seniority rights of all? Well, here's the problem: my seniority rights became a VESTED EXPECTANCY once the Nic Award was published. That means every West pilot has a legal claim to the rights and benefits inherent within a seniority list (read: bidding and furlough in reverse seniority). ALPA already has recognized this fact which is why they have stated on numerous occassions that nothing can be done other than to support and defend the award. Furthermore, should the impossible happen and USAPA actually wins an election, then guess what...USAPA inherits all obligations from its predecessor because USAPA would be what's termed a successor in interest. Everyone besides the USAPA ostriches knows that USAPA cannot rewrite that which is not rewritable. The sole purpose for USAPA is built on a legal claim that conveniently ignores the fact that USAPA is inheriting the results of a binding arbitration. I noticed in your USAPA letter that your counsel ignored that little tidbit. Seaham is correct in that seniority is a creature of contract, but this is a merger and in this merger it was contractually agreed to determine seniority via an arbitration process in which all parties agreed to be bound to the result. Game, set, match. That's the giant difference between this situation and the UAL case cited by your counsel and it doesn't take a legal scholar to understand that there isn't a Federal court anywhere that would allow the arbitration process to be turned upside down by an obscure legal argument like Seaham proposes. If you think otherwise, then keep pumping in your own money to try to get USAPA elected. Trust me, you'll be met squarely in the face by a legal bazooka from the West.

Is taking someone else's seat truly that vital to you? Does it trump any/all other considerations? Should it? There's likely to never be a better opportunity for discharging Alpo than now.

 

[EastUS]

Many supporters of AWA's failed in-house union attempt have become leaders within AWA ALPA. Why have we not seen a recall effort to replace the AAA MEC with USAPA supporters?

Because the same dysfunctional, cloistered and essentially corrupt structure would remain in place. Where's the long term gain from that?

 

[aquagreen73s]

Is taking someone else's seat truly that vital to you? Does it trump any/all other considerations? Should it?

You offered up everything when you went to arbitration, as did the West. Had you been totally stapled then that result would have been just as binding as the actual result. Likewise, had the West been stapled, then the result would have been just as binding as the actual result. That's the "risk" of arbitration; much like the finality of a jury verdict is the risk a criminal defendant takes when he/she goes to trial. What you really wanted was a process guaranteed to staple the West with no risk of anything less. Sorry, that's pure fantasy.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Duplicate deleted.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Many supporters of AWA's failed in-house union attempt have become leaders within AWA ALPA. Why have we not seen a recall effort to replace the AAA MEC with USAPA supporters? One would think with all the presumed support USAPA has, a coup would be a cake-walk. Or is it that AAA MEC and USAPA are two sides of the same coin, both needing the other to retain relevance?

What don't you understand? USAPA supporters want ALPA gone. It's that simple.

Being a part of a national association whose many members would like nothing more than to see USAirways disappear is enough for me. DAL's business plan post 9/11 was based solely on that fact. Even the DAL pilots were hoping for that. And we're supposed to be brothers? Right. Secondly, replacing the current leaders with new ones working within the ALPA structure solves nothing. The joke of the Constitution and ByLaws of ALPA is another problem. For some they are just that, for others they are merely guidelines.

 

[EastUS]

You offered up everything when you went to arbitration, as did the West. Had you been totally stapled then that result would have been just as binding as the actual result. Likewise, had the West been stapled, then the result would have been just as binding as the actual result. That's the "risk" of arbitration; much like the finality of a jury verdict is the risk a criminal defendant takes when he/she goes to trial. What you really wanted was a process guaranteed to staple the West with no risk of anything less. Sorry, that's pure fantasy.

"You"/I wanted no such thing, as I'll warrant that you personally did not want to see wholesale "slaughter" of the east, anymore than I wished any damage to the west. Neither of us was asked for any input regarding this corporate merger, nor did we have any say in how it's been played out thus far. As individuals, I'm guessing that we're not entire galaxies apart in our morals and thinking. This debacle's foisted upon us, and we've got to deal with it in whatever best mutual terms we can finally manage. I'm very sorry that it's taken the Nic situation to serve as a call to arms, and have any chance at removing Alpo, but here we all are.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Bill of Rights?........................................... Trust me, you'll be met squarely in the face by a legal bazooka from the West.

Thanks for the insight. But we already knew that. Believe me when I tell you this, there are alternatives.

As far as USAPA's sole pupose, you're sadly mistaken about the large majority of the core supporters.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Well at least you admit USAPA is about Nic and not the money. I appreciate your honesty, you surely have the right to say your opinion

What he said was:

EastUS
No question that Nic's the catalyst, but; It's not my main thing in truth.

I suspect for many it was the last straw. Have wanted to see ALPA gone for many years. So USAPA is the best thing that can happen. Have posted this before, "I would vote for the Dishwashers of America if it meant seeing ALPA removed from the property." But if you have an alternative, please let me know. Would like to consider it.

 

[Leonidas]

Thanks for the insight. But we already knew that. Believe me when I tell you this, there are alternatives.


Why don't you enlighten us all on what alternatives there are? oh yeah for those that don't know usapa's strategy is to "ignore" the award, that's right out of usapa's president mouth, nice planning huh?

 

[Bob Loblaw]

'AAA73Pilot'
"That's a joke, right? Few people? Not on your life. The MEC, LEC, committees such as MC, JNC, plus the attendant support people are all on flight pay loss."
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From what you describe the problem lies within your own AAA leadership structure. It may be true that all those people hold full time FPL positions and abuse expense policies. That kind of stuff hasn't happened to any great extent at any ALPA property that I have been at. Each MEC is able to make their own rules about that stuff within some rather large and generous guidelines. I would ask my rep to stop that kind of abuse and not partake of it and work to change the local policies if I were you. I have had occasion to enjoy the lavish AAA parties and hospitality suites provided at major ALPA functions. I always wondered how the USAirways pilots were able to afford such extreme entertaining and what they got out of it because it comes out of the local budget, not national's.

As for the other stuff about how USAPA will do it differently, the effort may be commendable but will ultimately prove to be ineffective. Running a union by referendum will not work. Direct democracy vs. representative democracy such as USAPA is advocating is ripe with pitfalls that will only serve to confuse and then enrage the members. Will the votes be binding, non binding and who decides? It proves to be an enormously expensive way to govern and it opens up too many opportunities for coalitions with divergent agendas to establish themselves and tie up votes. The whole process will eventually become moribund.

I maintain that the only way to attempt to change the direction of current pilot representation is to establish a union and not an association. ALPA may seem to be a top down organization but the whole seniority integration debacle is proof that it is not. AAA has been asking ALPA to do things that ALPA is not allowed to do. If this were a union then the president could do what your MEC has been asking. The ALPA membership by virtue of their representatives put these policies into place, not national. In order to change things you have to start with the members and work your way up. You've been appealing to the wrong people. Prater, Rice, the EC etc., cannot possibly do what has been asked of them until the membership at each local lobbies their rep who then takes it to their MEC who then takes it on up the chain until it eventually reaches the BOD. That is a bottom up organization and the east has been lobbying the tail end of the donkey.

What USAPA is asking for is a union yet they are holding themselves out to be an association which many feel has failed them. Why not look into becoming a union? That is really the only way to quickly deal with and solve the major issues the pilots of this industry are concerned about such as seniority integration and seniority in general.

Bob