Good post Mark, Don't see much happening with the IAM until this outsourcing issue is put to rest...one way or the other.MarkMyWords said:
After The Speech
- Thread starter totobird
- Start date
Hey did everyone IQ"s just drop in the last 2 weeks. USAIRWAYS not to long ago (2 weeks) announced PAY RAISES for MANAGEMENT & FRIENDS.
So who kidding who. please DAVE blow smoke up someone else"s tailpipe.
By the way ----what in you pipe DAVE.
So who kidding who. please DAVE blow smoke up someone else"s tailpipe.
By the way ----what in you pipe DAVE.
I do agree with those on here that take the wait and see approach. No one knows what is going to be asked of them. To say that you will vote No or Yes without knowing what you are voting on is premature and irresponsible.
For those that say that they have not seen anything in the presentation that shows what "the plan" is, perhaps you should listen to it again.
- we are reevaluating our entire fleet seat configuration.
- we are simplifying fares
- we are rolling the PHL hub
- we are changing the entire management team in PHL (see the COB releases)
- we will redeploy our assets with the introduction of additional MDA assets
- we are going to transform ourselves into an HP or AS.
- we are going to stand and compete - WE HAVE NO CHOICE
- Dave will toss the golden parachute and accept LCC type contract and pay
- Daves executive team will also change their compensation
- we will change the web to be more user friendly
- we will invest in more technoloogy
- we will increase flight frequencies with the addition of MDA aircraft
- we will add cities as more mainline aircraft become available
- we will replace turbo prop aircraft
- we will update mainline a/c with a new IFE
- we will update our facitilites with things such as wireless web access
- we will increase aircraft utilization
- we will increase employee productivity
- we will increase point to point flying
- we will increase internet sales
- we will grow the fleet and the network
- we will continue with our alliances with UA and Star
- we will change the company culture
Will some of this cost jobs, yes...and that could mean mine. Can we continue doing things they way we are today? No. I would prefer to lose my job due to stream lining our operations and have the possibility of coming back as the airline grows again, versus not having anything to come back to because the entire business entity is gone!!
Personally, I will take a wait and see approach. If I can't live with the concessions, then I will look to take my talents elsewhere.
One of the things that I think people wanted to hear is, what is expected from me. What are you going to ask me for in the way of concessions. I don't think that this meeting was the correct forum to put those things on the table. That shuold all be done in the board room with the union reps.
Let's wait and see what happens....
For those that say that they have not seen anything in the presentation that shows what "the plan" is, perhaps you should listen to it again.
- we are reevaluating our entire fleet seat configuration.
- we are simplifying fares
- we are rolling the PHL hub
- we are changing the entire management team in PHL (see the COB releases)
- we will redeploy our assets with the introduction of additional MDA assets
- we are going to transform ourselves into an HP or AS.
- we are going to stand and compete - WE HAVE NO CHOICE
- Dave will toss the golden parachute and accept LCC type contract and pay
- Daves executive team will also change their compensation
- we will change the web to be more user friendly
- we will invest in more technoloogy
- we will increase flight frequencies with the addition of MDA aircraft
- we will add cities as more mainline aircraft become available
- we will replace turbo prop aircraft
- we will update mainline a/c with a new IFE
- we will update our facitilites with things such as wireless web access
- we will increase aircraft utilization
- we will increase employee productivity
- we will increase point to point flying
- we will increase internet sales
- we will grow the fleet and the network
- we will continue with our alliances with UA and Star
- we will change the company culture
Will some of this cost jobs, yes...and that could mean mine. Can we continue doing things they way we are today? No. I would prefer to lose my job due to stream lining our operations and have the possibility of coming back as the airline grows again, versus not having anything to come back to because the entire business entity is gone!!
Personally, I will take a wait and see approach. If I can't live with the concessions, then I will look to take my talents elsewhere.
One of the things that I think people wanted to hear is, what is expected from me. What are you going to ask me for in the way of concessions. I don't think that this meeting was the correct forum to put those things on the table. That shuold all be done in the board room with the union reps.
Let's wait and see what happens....
RowUnderDCA: Where as I understand some of your comments about the financial situations and not wanting to loan more to U, I don't understand your statement that voting a Yes, would mean less furloughes. There will be furloughes...Regardless. Dave wants as many people out the door ASAP. He even stated there would be furloughes, particularly with the Res. people.
What did you mean by "using a time machine in your plan is not allowed."?? You lost me there.
We have over 20,000 people furloughed because of voting Yes. Even if the majority was a No vote, they would still be furloughed. It really doesn't matter. Come high or Hell water, this Management is going to get rid of as many employees as it can, that is MOHO>
The ONLY reason, and I mean ONLY reason that I am still employed right now, is because of my senority, which is quickly sinking. If what I have heard from a Union Rep, and NO it is not Teddy, anyone with under 15 years F/A Seniorty will be furloughed by August.
Do I want this company to Survive. Hell Yes. It is my livelihood. I love my job, I love the people I have met and all of my experiences.
I am a great Cheerleader when I believe in someone or something. I would be the first out there to support this Management IF I had heard of a PLAN> A Plan that inspired us all and gave us a vision and a hope for this Company. Sorry, I did not get that from him. Just his ranting about Southwest, blah, blah, blah.
God help him if he treats his children like he does his employees. :down:
What did you mean by "using a time machine in your plan is not allowed."?? You lost me there.
We have over 20,000 people furloughed because of voting Yes. Even if the majority was a No vote, they would still be furloughed. It really doesn't matter. Come high or Hell water, this Management is going to get rid of as many employees as it can, that is MOHO>
The ONLY reason, and I mean ONLY reason that I am still employed right now, is because of my senority, which is quickly sinking. If what I have heard from a Union Rep, and NO it is not Teddy, anyone with under 15 years F/A Seniorty will be furloughed by August.
Do I want this company to Survive. Hell Yes. It is my livelihood. I love my job, I love the people I have met and all of my experiences.
I am a great Cheerleader when I believe in someone or something. I would be the first out there to support this Management IF I had heard of a PLAN> A Plan that inspired us all and gave us a vision and a hope for this Company. Sorry, I did not get that from him. Just his ranting about Southwest, blah, blah, blah.
God help him if he treats his children like he does his employees. :down:
ITRADE
Veteran
Sorry, but the main reason where there are 20,000 furloughees is because 19 muslims decided to slam four commercial aircraft into various buildings/hunks of land. Had that not happened, US probably would not have gone chapter 11 and the consequences that came with it.ktflyhome said:
Ratboy -
Didn't most unions get their token raises this year? By their contracts they were awarded the raises they negotiated as a part of their snap back.
During the bankruptcy process and negotiations with the unions, the MSP, non-contract and clerical employees were promised similar token raises. So should we honor our committments to the unions and screw the MSP, non-contract and clerical employees, just to make you feel better about further concessions? MSP employee raises will be merritt based, which means the employee could see anywhere from 0-4% raises, depending on their job performance and recent evaluations. I haven't seen anything that said that the executive team was participating in the same raises. These raises are for the low-mid level managers.
Didn't most unions get their token raises this year? By their contracts they were awarded the raises they negotiated as a part of their snap back.
During the bankruptcy process and negotiations with the unions, the MSP, non-contract and clerical employees were promised similar token raises. So should we honor our committments to the unions and screw the MSP, non-contract and clerical employees, just to make you feel better about further concessions? MSP employee raises will be merritt based, which means the employee could see anywhere from 0-4% raises, depending on their job performance and recent evaluations. I haven't seen anything that said that the executive team was participating in the same raises. These raises are for the low-mid level managers.
I humbly disagree, ITRADE. U was in shoal waters before 9/11. I agree 9/11 hastened the process.
AFWIW, WN did not furlough anyone due to 9/11, BECAUSE they have a superior business plan, hence a superior balance sheet.
AFWIW, WN did not furlough anyone due to 9/11, BECAUSE they have a superior business plan, hence a superior balance sheet.
First of all Itrade: The company was Hollering way before that, this just fell into their lap, unfortunately. 9/11 gave them Exactly what they were wanting. I know this.
Secondly MMW: I totally disagree that this meeting was not the Correct Forum. It was exactly the correct Forum to address these issues. This is what the employees wanted and were waiting for. Dave could just as easily said all he did in one of his little Davey Messages to the Empoyees. Hell, why not just mail us all out a little letter. Wonder which would have been cheaper, Stamps or the Webcast.
MMW: I do agree with you that it is a wait and see process. But on the other hand, it appears that is all we have been doing forever....is wait and see....wait and see...wait and see.....YAWN. <_<
Secondly MMW: I totally disagree that this meeting was not the Correct Forum. It was exactly the correct Forum to address these issues. This is what the employees wanted and were waiting for. Dave could just as easily said all he did in one of his little Davey Messages to the Empoyees. Hell, why not just mail us all out a little letter. Wonder which would have been cheaper, Stamps or the Webcast.
MMW: I do agree with you that it is a wait and see process. But on the other hand, it appears that is all we have been doing forever....is wait and see....wait and see...wait and see.....YAWN. <_<
ITRADE
Veteran
I don't think that the majors planned over 100,000 furloughs before 9/11. That certainly changed.
Well, they have a winner business plan owing in part to their route structure - covering mostly all big airports/big cities. Continental laid folks off. American lid folks off. Delta laid folks off.
KT -
I don't agree that this message was the right forum to lay out what he wants from each employee group. Those things are negotiated between the unions and the company, then brought to you to vote on. I am sure PitBull would even agree that you don't negotiate in a public forum. Yes, he could have given some sort of idea of what he would be seeking, but to put out specifics would be wrong. They can ask for the moon and the stars, but what you actually get at the negotiating table is something different. Just like with past concessionairy negotiations, there are several ways to get to the bogey numbers. Do you cut wages to keep vacation and sick time? Do you keep perdium money in lew of sacrificing something else? Each contract is very complex and savings could come from many different areas. What if all of the concessions for AFA could be done without reducing your wages at all?
Personally, I was also disappointed that I don't know what to expect and don't know how to plan for what may be coming. But I also understand that those negotiations need to take place between the union and the company.
I don't agree that this message was the right forum to lay out what he wants from each employee group. Those things are negotiated between the unions and the company, then brought to you to vote on. I am sure PitBull would even agree that you don't negotiate in a public forum. Yes, he could have given some sort of idea of what he would be seeking, but to put out specifics would be wrong. They can ask for the moon and the stars, but what you actually get at the negotiating table is something different. Just like with past concessionairy negotiations, there are several ways to get to the bogey numbers. Do you cut wages to keep vacation and sick time? Do you keep perdium money in lew of sacrificing something else? Each contract is very complex and savings could come from many different areas. What if all of the concessions for AFA could be done without reducing your wages at all?
Personally, I was also disappointed that I don't know what to expect and don't know how to plan for what may be coming. But I also understand that those negotiations need to take place between the union and the company.
MMW: I understand what you are saying about the negotiations within the the Company/Union and all of the complex issues. But on the other hand, I felt this Forum could have been an opportunity to really face the employees head on and let US (us) know better concrete answers to some of our questions. As I stated earlier, all we have been really left with is a "wait and see" game.
So he (Dave) wants to start Formal Negotiatins come April. We all know this can be time consuming and it appears our time is running out, visa vis SW coming into the picture. So, it appears the crunch is on, emotions are high, fears are abundant, and we just "wait and see". The story of this Airline. Wait and See. <_<
So he (Dave) wants to start Formal Negotiatins come April. We all know this can be time consuming and it appears our time is running out, visa vis SW coming into the picture. So, it appears the crunch is on, emotions are high, fears are abundant, and we just "wait and see". The story of this Airline. Wait and See. <_<
Well, I really don't know about the furloughs. Are there no furlough clauses? Are they meaningful, considering the circumstances?ktflyhome said:
If there are no limitations to furloughs, certainly the company would be more likely to retain workers that cost less and are relatively more productive. So, that's my reasoning that pay cuts would result in higher head count than in the absence of those pay cuts.
The time machine reference was simply to keep people from responding that U could pay us more if they had done this or that back then.
KT -
I agree, the wait and see game is nerve racking. All of this information could have been presented back in Nov and we should have been well on our way to implimenting most of the operational aspects of the plan....I will never understand why they haven't. Bottom line.....it is coming......it needs to happen.....it should have happened sooner....and I am sure it is really going to hurt.
I have a question for you, or any other F/A. There was a F/A in the Q & A that made mention of the time balancing reserve system and the hit that reserve F/A's have taken. If the company announced additional furloughs (vol first, then invol), how would you react? By furloughing additional F/A's you would be able to reduce costs and increase the number of reserves that break the 72 hour guarantee - thus reducing the pain of those on reserve. Would that be acceptable? In essence you would be sacrificing some for the greater good of all on reserve and reducing the pain of the time balancing system.
I agree, the wait and see game is nerve racking. All of this information could have been presented back in Nov and we should have been well on our way to implimenting most of the operational aspects of the plan....I will never understand why they haven't. Bottom line.....it is coming......it needs to happen.....it should have happened sooner....and I am sure it is really going to hurt.
I have a question for you, or any other F/A. There was a F/A in the Q & A that made mention of the time balancing reserve system and the hit that reserve F/A's have taken. If the company announced additional furloughs (vol first, then invol), how would you react? By furloughing additional F/A's you would be able to reduce costs and increase the number of reserves that break the 72 hour guarantee - thus reducing the pain of those on reserve. Would that be acceptable? In essence you would be sacrificing some for the greater good of all on reserve and reducing the pain of the time balancing system.
MMW:MarkMyWords said:
In reference to Dave's to do list, the question is why hasn't most of these proposed changed been done earlier? There's nothing in most of the union contracts that preclude him from making most of these changes.
I don't buy his reasoning that circumstances have changed in the past year, that the LCCs are encroaching on our territory. We've been told that again and again in previous contract negotiations by previous managements. The to do list is being brought up once again at the last moment by a management who has sat on their arses over the years and , at the last minutes, expects labor to bail them out because of their lack of action. It's a mystery. :unsure:
The other problem with Dave, and it's a major concern with most employees, is that his word cannot be trusted. He's lied too many times to be believed now.
Willy -
I wish I had an answer to your question. I have been askign the same thing over and over. What is in the contracts that have prohibited much of the to do list? I have no idea. But for people to say that there is no plan, then they were looking for something much more out of the meeting, perhaps what was expected of them in the form of concessions.
The only thing that I can come up with is this. If I were CEO of the company and had to make the choice of minimizing the effects on the employees as much as possible, or blowing them off the map with concessionis, I would start out trying to make things work with minimal disruption to what your pay/benefits are. For example, if I had to chose between forcing 25% pay cuts and 5% paycuts, I would definitly want to see what I could do with the 5% before I had to jump to a 25%. Who knew that fuel prices would nearly double? In all honesty, I think we would have been in much better shape if fuel prices were substantially lower, but we don't have control over that. Hopefully, when/if concessions are negotiated, there will be provisions in there for a much more generous profit sharign program for all employees. So if the price of fuel comes down, and our profits soar, then we will recoup much of what we gave up.
I wish I had the answers.....I wish I knew why they were dragging their feet on much of the to do list. It does not change the reality of the situation......we must react and react quickly or we will die. I honestly don't think that anyone can deny that.
I wish I had an answer to your question. I have been askign the same thing over and over. What is in the contracts that have prohibited much of the to do list? I have no idea. But for people to say that there is no plan, then they were looking for something much more out of the meeting, perhaps what was expected of them in the form of concessions.
The only thing that I can come up with is this. If I were CEO of the company and had to make the choice of minimizing the effects on the employees as much as possible, or blowing them off the map with concessionis, I would start out trying to make things work with minimal disruption to what your pay/benefits are. For example, if I had to chose between forcing 25% pay cuts and 5% paycuts, I would definitly want to see what I could do with the 5% before I had to jump to a 25%. Who knew that fuel prices would nearly double? In all honesty, I think we would have been in much better shape if fuel prices were substantially lower, but we don't have control over that. Hopefully, when/if concessions are negotiated, there will be provisions in there for a much more generous profit sharign program for all employees. So if the price of fuel comes down, and our profits soar, then we will recoup much of what we gave up.
I wish I had the answers.....I wish I knew why they were dragging their feet on much of the to do list. It does not change the reality of the situation......we must react and react quickly or we will die. I honestly don't think that anyone can deny that.
