Ala Carte Bevs

[etops1]

I'd certainly love to be proved wrong!

😉

 

[tadjr]

So Bob, when is your next WN flight? 😛
I understand what you're saying and I'm sure there are a lot of those circumstances out there. But, I can tell you from working at the airport and being the travel consultant for all my family and non airline friends, I can find just as many numbers in the other direction than you can find showing otherwise. Thats the reason people have the choice to purchase on whichever carrier suits them.
Also, my comment was directed to those customers who buy the cheapest ticket, pay for baggage charges (which added together is STILL cheaper than flat out buying a ticket on an airline that gives you a free bag (hint- it isnt always "free" when you're paying more to begin with) and then complains about it.
Had someone going to LIT that paid $158, checked 2 bags, now up to $198. Cheapest WN ticket same day was $300. $102 cheaper and they're still complaining? These are the customers I just have to shake my head at, not the family of 4. I feel for them and would think that since its been almost a year since the baggage charges went into effect, that most people would have at least heard about it (or see the little taxes and baggage fees may apply disclaimer before they hit enter)?
I do wish US would go to something like Air Canada so the customer has the choice from the beginning to pay or not, including baggage and drinks. Business (lets get rid of the First Class once and for all since its not and would be better suited advertised and sold as Business), Coach (a free bag and free nonalcoholic drinks, no charge for changing tickets) and Economy (nothing free, pay for everything and no changes to tickets). The actual fares could vary within each group, but would be sold as one of the three options.

 

[ClueByFour]

I'm curious. Did this "Fortune 250" travel manager tell "people" to stay away from CO as well, or was it simply a $2 soda that he/she found so offensive?



http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Continental-...s-14229804.html

How is CO's revenue falling, what with all the new high fare revenue they have received from US in the last year? Surely their numbers should be busting through the roof with free food in Y, a free soder, and a hub in one of the largest O&D markets in the universe?

It's the BS that comes with dealing with the fees and the fact that with the fees, US is rarely the cheapest. The other comment that I found interesting was that US is apparently very aggressive at chasing revenue (ticket audits, fighting with our TA over credit memos and the like) but not very responsive at all in responding to customer service requests and complaints.

Why is Bob, a big corporate exec, being charged for baggage, or an aisle seat, if he is an elite? Or is it the $2 soder receipt that is confusing Shanese?

Not everyone who travels for work is elite. Further, it costs money to process paper (you know, like, e-tickets and such).

And come to find out, when they leave US as non- elites, they will be subjected to the exact same fees at other airlines, with , of course the exception of $2. Turns out to be a huge savings in frustration levels!

Here's to the World Kettles!

No, they won't. Since I racked up A-list on WN almost exclusively flying a route I would have flown on US, they have never, ever charged me for a drink or a bag.

I've even flown them when they are more expensive than US by more than the cost of the bags and soda--why? Because as a customer, I don't enjoy dealing with companies who make me feel like I need to keep a hand on my wallet at all times.

You seem to drink the Tempe kool-aide on the "kettle versus non-kettle" pax, so I'll say this: US' behavior on a $200 ticket influences whether I buy the $2000 ticket with them. I'm not alone. Think about it.

 

[phllax]

What get's really interesting is when you take a look at last minute fares versus value delivered.

Remember I broke the story regarding the analysis of WN's fares versus legacy carriers showing the WN was only cheapest 26% of the time. A report that frankly ruffled WN's feathers when the reporter asked them to respond.

If you're doing a direct flight say PHL-DEN and it's a near certain guarantee you're NOT getting the upgrade flying on US coach on an unrestricted ticket versus Business Select you have to be a masochist to fly US Airways.

Seat Pitch

US - 31"
WN - 32-33"

Now to pricing
US - $725.50 + $30 + $14.00* = $769.00
WN - $775.80 this a business select fare
WN - $735.80 unrestricted
US - $1479.80 + $30.00 = $1,509.00 Instant Upgrade Fare

*Business Select fare includes 1 free alcoholic beverage

I've been noodling around off and on today and have yet to find a fare except the WN Business Select Fare shown that is more once the true cost of travel has be calculated.

I have no idea what this says about US or WN, but it does say something.

Bob - what does this analysis look like when you throw UA and F9 in the loop?

 

[aredeeyou22]

It's the BS that comes with dealing with the fees and the fact that with the fees, US is rarely the cheapest. The other comment that I found interesting was that US is apparently very aggressive at chasing revenue (ticket audits, fighting with our TA over credit memos and the like) but not very responsive at all in responding to customer service requests and complaints.

Same BS fees you have to deal with at most carriers, but the breaking point for this Fortune 250 travel manager I suppose was shelling out $2 for a coke? Not BOB? Not bags? Not aisle seats?

And, where is it written that US does not respond to complaints? You may not like the outcome, but do they simply not respond? Not according to the peeps on FT.

Not everyone who travels for work is elite. Further, it costs money to process paper (you know, like, e-tickets and such).

So they're not elites, and the problem is all of these people submitting their $2 coke receipts? Again, I fail to see where the non elites would not be submitting receipts if they flew on CO or DL.

No, they won't. Since I racked up A-list on WN almost exclusively flying a route I would have flown on US, they have never, ever charged me for a drink or a bag.

Right. You got me. I didn't realize that all the non elites were flying WN exclusively. I was thinking AA CO and DL. My bad.

I've even flown them when they are more expensive than US by more than the cost of the bags and soda--why? Because as a customer, I don't enjoy dealing with companies who make me feel like I need to keep a hand on my wallet at all times.

Again, that would leave you with WN. On all the others, you have to whip that fat wallet out to get you some eats (or, on US, a drink!!!), especially if you are a non elite.

You seem to drink the Tempe kool-aide on the "kettle versus non-kettle" pax, so I'll say this: US' behavior on a $200 ticket influences whether I buy the $2000 ticket with them. I'm not alone. Think about it.

Love the koolaid comment. Last ditch defense. I'll defend US if I feel like it, and I'll call them out when I feel like it. I am surprised it took this many pages to whip out the kool aid defense!

 

[aredeeyou22]

Since both markets have a mix of traffic - high yield, low yield, and everything in between - plus a mix of competition, it's impossible to say that one absolutely has higher average yield than the other. While I'm sure US has the numbers for PHL and CO for EWR, those numbers aren't reported. Now one could speculate that the NYC market has better average yield than PHL, but that says nothing about CO's yield at EWR (serving only a portion of NYC traffic) vs US' yield at PHL (which serves all of PHL traffic).



Jim

Oh, come on. You can't possibly believe this yourself, can you?

Begs the question why UA started PS out of the NYC market, and not, say, PHL- LAX.

Or why CO just upgraded their FC service to the west coast to previous levels, and left out PHX...

Since airlines don't report stations separately, we are to assume that PHX could very well be as strong an O&D market, with equally healthy yields, as EWR.

Gotcha.

 

[tadjr]

What get's really interesting is when you take a look at last minute fares versus value delivered.

I have no idea what this says about US or WN, but it does say something.

It says do your shopping and check other markets. I've done some searching and found some that are the opposite from what you've posted, so let's just say we are unable to make general assumptions about pricing on US and WN (or any carrier for that matter) and it depends on what you can find for when you want to travel and where you are traveling to. The entire world does not originate or terminate in PHL.

These are all for this coming Saturday Feb 7th.
TPA-STL WN 295.20
TPA-STL US 168.70

MCO-JAN WN 203.60
MCO-JAN US 148.70

FLL-HOU WN 320.60
FLL-IAH US 218.70

And one thats closer

ORF-MCI WN 307.20
ORF-MCI US 294.20

So what does this prove about US and WN pricing? That no matter where you are traveling to, you will get a better fare if you shop around. We could go on and on like this all night, but I have other things to do and we can search markets to prove either point so lets just say Do Your Homework and buy whichever airline (not just US or WN) fits your flight schedule and wallet.

 

[ClueByFour]

Same BS fees you have to deal with at most carriers, but the breaking point for this Fortune 250 travel manager I suppose was shelling out $2 for a coke? Not BOB? Not bags? Not aisle seats?

It's not merely the coke, and US "led the pack."

And, where is it written that US does not respond to complaints? You may not like the outcome, but do they simply not respond? Not according to the peeps on FT.

They don't. Even for the people lucky enough to get a response, it pales in comparison to what the East consumer affairs folks did, and hugely pales in comparison to how a company blowing millions of dollars on US would be handled by the East CA staff.

And a note on FT--I can say a few things: FT is not my constituency when spending my firm's dime on my travel or that of my reports, that the complaints outnumber the kudos by about 10:1 (which mirrors the DOT complaint stats pretty nicely, natch), and that there are at least two users over there who are essentially confirmed US plants (who, according to people who have access to such things, actually posted from Tempe IP addresses).

See, I'm in a business that regularly makes (not revenue, return to shareholders) north of a billion dollars a year. We don't treat people who do millions of dollars a year like US treats large customers. It makes for a really simple decision.

The other reason for our demotion of travel on US is this: when asked why we should fly US versus the legacys and real LCCs in non-PHX/CLT/PHL markets, the US folks who our travel people deal with apparently had no answer outside of price. None. And even had they come up with some BS attempting to differentiate themselves, every one of the frequent travelers who is consulted on such things would've debunked it.

So they're not elites, and the problem is all of these people submitting their $2 coke receipts? Again, I fail to see where the non elites would not be submitting receipts if they flew on CO or DL.

US led the pack on all the fees and was ostensibly the last to go cashless. Figure it out. The good boys and girls left the barn.

You are also making the very large assumption that all the traffic we are talking about ended up on carriers who nickle and dime you for everything. That's not the case, either.

Right. You got me. I didn't realize that all the non elites were flying WN exclusively. I was thinking AA CO and DL. My bad.

You know, you never did even ask about the ranking, preferred carriers, or what else was said. Simply went into the knee-jerk "blame the customer" routine.

Love the koolaid comment. Last ditch defense. I'll defend US if I feel like it, and I'll call them out when I feel like it. I am surprised it took this many pages to whip out the kool aid defense!

Loved it so much you failed to address the meat of it (wanna guess which logical fallacy that is?).

Why do you suppose Tempe (who has so vehemently sworn up and down that their various changes have not impacted their elite base) reversed the 500 mile decision and is now offering double EQMs if things are peachy keen?

If you wait long enough, you will not only be the only VFF flying US, but they'll even sell you the rose-colored glasses as opposed to giving them to you.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Oh, come on. You can't possibly believe this yourself, can you?

I can only provide the water, I can't make you drink (even if it's free)

Begs the question why UA started PS out of the NYC market, and not, say, PHL- LAX.

You do love to take the exceptions and pretend they're the rule (or is it that you really don't know differently?). PS, from what I've read, is a one-of-a-kind domestic product that is only successful (assuming it is) in the NYC-LAX market where there are enough who will pay the required premium for that kind of service to be successful. If NYC is such a high yield market as you claim, why hasn't UA added other PS routes? Why haven't other carriers imitated it? Because there's just not enough people even in NYC that'll pay that price for that type of service.

Or why CO just upgraded their FC service to the west coast to previous levels, and left out PHX...

What's PHX got to do with whether NYC (EWR specifically since youre comparing to CO) has higher average yields than PHL? A diversion? A straw man?

Since airlines don't report stations separately, we are to assume that PHX could very well be as strong an O&D market, with equally healthy yields, as EWR.

Just as in the NYC vs PHX case, you're free to assume anything you want. Doesn't make it correct.

You do love to use one or two data points and attempt to make it prove something, don't you. So let's look at PHX vs PHL/EWR. Is the amount of low cost competition the same - that affects yield, in case you didn't know. Is the makeup of the population the same? That affects yield, in case you didn't know. Is the average stage length the same? That affects yield (because it affects CASM), in case you didn't know.

In short, even if you could have two identically sized cities the yield may be different for a host of other reasons and either one could have the higher yield. You can have a very large metropolitan market vs a smaller city - just look at CVG. Your argument is that the NYC O&D yield is higher than PHL, yet CVG has consistently had the highest average fares in the country - higher than either NYC or PHL. Where's all the PS type service out of CVG? Why isn't US clamoring for more gates so they can add tons of flights at CVG? Kinda blows your theory out of the water, doesn't it.

Jim

 

[ClueByFour]

You do love to take the exceptions and pretend they're the rule (or is it that you really don't know differently?). PS, from what I've read, is a one-of-a-kind domestic product that is only successful (assuming it is) in the NYC-LAX market where there are enough who will pay the required premium for that kind of service to be successful. If NYC is such a high yield market as you claim, why hasn't UA added other PS routes? Why haven't other carriers imitated it? Because there's just not enough people even in NYC that'll pay that price for that type of service.

There is a very good reason why PS exists on the NY-LA market. Among other huge contracts, the SAG travel contract requires 3-classes of service. That's why (among other reasons that you mention), in the last 10-15 years, both UA and AA have run three class birds.

To your point about the number of people who are willing to pay it, it's instructive to note that UA used to run widebodies in the pre-PS days. They cut capacity while upgrading the service, and seem to have been so successful (if we are going to toss FT around as a yardstick) that there are UA people heading over to EWR to take CO because they won't pay the (relatively) high UA PS fares. Sure seems like it's working.

As for something like a premium service to PHX? Never happen. Demand is not there and the yields for coach are dog (thanks to LUV).

 

[WCT]

Alaska Airlines is my pick for winner of the year!! They have such a classy product for Buy on Board. Have you flown them lately??? Wow! They offer snack boxes on all flights over an hour, which are very healthy. A total of 3 differenct varieties with orangic green friendly snack items. Jones soda's for free, root beer, diet cream soda, etc. Fresh sandwhiches, hot choices, and salads for $5, not $7!!! Cocktails 4 to 5 dollars! The flight attendants also recycle everything from newspapers to cups, cans with different color bags. What a class act!!! US needs to step it up!!

 

[aredeeyou22]

As for something like a premium service to PHX? Never happen. Demand is not there and the yields for coach are dog (thanks to LUV).

I agree with you, but BB is telling us that there is absolutely no way to know that NYC is any more high yielding than PHX, since airlines do not report stations separately.

How did you get this information?

 

[phllax]

Alaska Airlines is my pick for winner of the year!! ... The flight attendants also recycle everything from newspapers to cups, cans with different color bags. What a class act!!! US needs to step it up!!

Long before the merger and even BK1 US was recycling cans on their flights. I think the problem was once the trash got removed from the aircraft it was difficult to track that it was actually recycled.

 

[aredeeyou22]

It's not merely the coke, and US "led the pack."

Doesn't matter who led the pack, the point is that on most other carriers, these non elites will be submitting receipts for everything from baggage to food to aisle seats. Another $2 might be annoying, but it's not that many more receipts for the travel department to become overwhelmed with.

They don't. Even for the people lucky enough to get a response, it pales in comparison to what the East consumer affairs folks did, and hugely pales in comparison to how a company blowing millions of dollars on US would be handled by the East CA staff.

Again, I realize the CA dept is not what it used to be; the statement implied that US does not respond at all to complaints, which is not true.

And a note on FT--I can say a few things: FT is not my constituency when spending my firm's dime on my travel or that of my reports, that the complaints outnumber the kudos by about 10:1 (which mirrors the DOT complaint stats pretty nicely, natch), and that there are at least two users over there who are essentially confirmed US plants (who, according to people who have access to such things, actually posted from Tempe IP addresses).

So the people on FT who say they have heard from Tempe in regards to their complaints are all "plants". I did not know that. I stand corrected.

See, I'm in a business that regularly makes (not revenue, return to shareholders) north of a billion dollars a year. We don't treat people who do millions of dollars a year like US treats large customers. It makes for a really simple decision.

The other reason for our demotion of travel on US is this: when asked why we should fly US versus the legacys and real LCCs in non-PHX/CLT/PHL markets, the US folks who our travel people deal with apparently had no answer outside of price. None. And even had they come up with some BS attempting to differentiate themselves, every one of the frequent travelers who is consulted on such things would've debunked it.

I agree that US has its major issues. My whole question started with this thread when someone said that a Fortune 250 travel manager told his people to avoid US at all costs due to "ancillary fees", most of which can be found on every other legacy carrier (for non elites), just like US. The only addition would be the extra, "deal breaking" $2.

US led the pack on all the fees and was ostensibly the last to go cashless. Figure it out. The good boys and girls left the barn.

And, for the most part, the others followed. Do you fault them for being the lemming type? Food, bags, aisle seats. I am not saying I agree with nickel and diming non elites to death, I just don't think most every other airline should get a pass when they are all charging similarly...

You are also making the very large assumption that all the traffic we are talking about ended up on carriers who nickle and dime you for everything. That's not the case, either.

The thread mentions non- elites. Therefore, on most airlines save WN, they would be subjected to some fees. If these people are truly looking to travel, have access to things such as Star or Oneworld, etc, I am not sure 100% of them defected to WN. I could be wrong.

You know, you never did even ask about the ranking, preferred carriers, or what else was said. Simply went into the knee-jerk "blame the customer" routine.

I don't blame the customer for leaving US whatsoever (I see what this place is like!). I just don't believe that non- elites that left US are not being nickel and dimed at other carriers. That is simply not accurate, unless all 300 defected to went to WN.

Loved it so much you failed to address the meat of it (wanna guess which logical fallacy that is?).

Why do you suppose Tempe (who has so vehemently sworn up and down that their various changes have not impacted their elite base) reversed the 500 mile decision and is now offering double EQMs if things are peachy keen?

If you wait long enough, you will not only be the only VFF flying US, but they'll even sell you the rose-colored glasses as opposed to giving them to you.

Agreed about the preferred leaving; we all knew that was happening! But we were talking about the 300 NON elites in an example from above. What does that have to do with 500 mile minimums and EQMs? These non elites that are "bombarding" their travel department with receipts for a $2 coke have no access to those things. You're letting your beef with Tempe dilute the issue at hand.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I agree with you, but BB is telling us that there is absolutely no way to know that NYC is any more high yielding than PHX, since airlines do not report stations separately.

That's it...misstate my answers, take parts of one and parts of another to cobble together answers, keep changing the question, sliding around facts.

So show me where I said what you claim - give the quote - or apologize.

Jim