Alpa Merger Seniority Integration

[aquagreen73s]

>>DOH is a constant that respects longevity<<

Not true....at all! DOH and longevity happen to coincide at hiring and if there is continuous employment, then they will track each other. But nobody uses DOH past day 1. On U's own seniority list there are DOH's which are out of position, precisely because of longevity. If U pilots want a pure DOH, then there will be some reversals on their own list. And we all know that can't happen. That's why seniority lists are based on longevity, not DOH. Actually, DOH is really longevity at day one. Any method utilizing DOH itself (which really does not exist) is absurd. Longevity is a different story.

 

[N924PS]

>>DOH is a constant that respects longevity<<

Not true....at all!  DOH and longevity happen to coincide at hiring and if there is continuous employment, then they will track each other. But nobody uses DOH past day 1. On U's own seniority list there are DOH's which are out of position, precisely because of longevity. If U pilots want a pure DOH, then there will be some reversals on their own list.  And we all know that can't happen. That's why seniority lists are based on longevity, not DOH.  Actually, DOH is really longevity at day one.  Any method utilizing DOH itself (which really does not exist) is absurd. Longevity is a different story.

[post="311918"][/post]​

The DOH's that are out of position are the Trump Shuttle (EAL DOH shown) that were slotted into the USAirways pilot list.

Not sure if any are left, but certain former PSA pilots reflected different dates owing to SEPERATE lists at one time based on CAPT/FO/FE.

If there are others, please identify for us.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Pilots who go out on medical past 3 months (?) stop accruing longevity. Pilots who take voluntary leaves for whatever reasons stop accruing longevity. Pilots on furlough stop accruing longevity. In the furlough case, they all return with in the same relative position but take the current bottom pilot at U as an example: his class was split. He's still gaining longevity, the ones below him are not. In all likelihood, he'll be one year ahead of the guy next junior to him who is still on furlough. Now, if he were to go out on medical for two years, then his junior classmates could theoretically catch and pass him. THere's a difference between longevity and DOH. DOH is a figment; it's a convenient but not always accurate indicator of longevity. Every seniority list is built by longevity, not longevity on day 1 (DOH). By promotion strictly the DOH, every seniority list in the industry would be subject to reordering. Not by a great amount, but the point is that seniority lists are based on longevity, not DOH.

 

[aquagreen73s]

>>The DOH's that are out of position are the Trump Shuttle (EAL DOH shown) that were slotted into the USAirways pilot list.<<

Slotting does happen....even at U.

 

[ClueByFour]

6 years ago New Hires at UAL were going to be 767 Captains today. New Hires at NWAC, Delta, CAL and AA were probably similar. In 1987, New hires at US and PI were going to be Captains in 2 or 3. Bottom line there are no career expectations for anyone, and a smart arbitrator and merger comittee will recognize that. It boils down to age and longevity and those components are the ones that intergration should be dertermined by. If anyone expected something when they got hired they were exercising irrational exuberance and if they think they have it now, it's the same old pilot greed making an argument to support their personal cause and throwing any sense of fraternity or far-sightedness out the window because, "I want mine now."

[post="311847"][/post]​

You US guys kill me.

There is a 7 year captain somewhere at HP (I don't know the exact time). You guys need like what, 18 years to hold reserve FO?

A 1999 hire at HP is probably a lineholding FO, if not a junior reserve CA. You were two steps away from the unemployment line, with any DOH.

Career expectations are everything. Perhaps that's why ALPA has them in the handbook.

Because the HP folks made a better choice at a better time counts for something. You essentially want to penalize somebody for making a smarter choice.

Unreal.

At least the HP pilots will have the benefit of an arbitrator (unlike the FAs and the mechs). This insane idea that DOH is somehow "fair" is only sane to those desperate to justify riding a sinking ship until right before the rescue crew showed up with the pumps....

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Bite me! It's DOH or DIE!

 

[aquagreen73s]

I'm amazed by the widespread misconception as to how seniority lists are built. It's longevity...always has been, always will be. Even when the AFA talks "DOH," that's commoner slang for what is really "longevity." Even their seniority list has been based on longevity so for them to now say "date of hire" means they are asking for a seniority list which didn't even exist on their side. Clearly, that is senseless. And to reiterate, even if pilots did have the same merger language as the AFA, it would really be a merger based on longevity. DOH is about as valuable as monopoly money. It means nothing on both U's and AWA's seniority lists. Vacations are determined by longevity. Pay is determined on longevity. Seniority is based on longevity: e.g. a 30 year employee is ahead of a one year employee...even though it's theoretically possible the two were hired together! Not going to happen though, for other reasons such as medical retirement. But that illustrates how seniority is determined. And it's not the actual date you showed up on the property, but the time accrued since showing up on the property and wearing the uniform.

 

[SoldWholeSale]

You all need to consider what's really going to happen. We may as well skip the posturing, save the money and go immediately to an arbitrator. Its going to happen sooner or later. An arbitrator is picked by both parties, and since they have to be selected, they do their best to make good rulings for everyone concerned.

Most likely, they will slot with bias towards seat and equipment. There will probably be some fences for the next 4-5 years, and pay for longevity. In short, if you are half way down the narrow body captain list at one carrier, you will be also on the combined list. Reality.....

I'm a student of history, and thats realistic. I hope everyone maintines their quality of life, noone leaps from the back of another, and is able to fill the stockings at Christmas. I've worked with both pilot groups as a former express pilot years ago, and am happy with the combination.

Best regards,

ALL OR NONE!

SH

 

[fatburger]

Clue,

How the he11 did anyone at HP make a "smarter" or "better" choice? Guess what? This whole industry is a crapshoot. You want to join, you roll the dice. You sound like a moron. Get a brain girlfriend.

-fatburger-

bring it!

 

[traderjake]

Some of my USAirways East coworkers are the most unethical and "mentally challenged" people you'll ever meet.

 

[ClueByFour]

How the he11 did anyone at HP make a "smarter" or "better" choice?

Notably because US 1,800 people furloughed. How many are on HP's list.

Guess what? This whole industry is a crapshoot. You want to join, you roll the dice. You sound like a moron.

I could have chased a career in aviation. Fortunately, I've found a career that allows me to fly recreationally when I want and not have to subject myself to folks who think that longevity and/or DOH is the true value of one's worth. Or bemoan being "locked in" to a job and somehow think that entitles them a windfall over a junior pilot group.

Whomever said (earlier in this thread, and I've said it elsewhere) that a guy holding a 737 line before the merger should hold one after. A 757 reserve FO should hold that relative position after the merger. Any layoffs should arguably come from the US side--HP was hiring pilots before the merger.

Get a brain girlfriend.

If you are indeed a pilot, you do a poor job of representing your profession, but let me give you some advice: when I want the opinion of the bus driver, I'll give it to you. Now hurry up--I've got a meeting to get to and the beverage cart is out of finlandia.

 

[A320 Driver]

Bite me! It's DOH or DIE!

[post="311939"][/post]​

WOW...mention the "s" word (seniority) and the fangs come out. Talk about limited options!


A320 Driver B)

 

[EyeInTheSky]

WOW...mention the "s" word (seniority) and the fangs come out. Talk about limited options!
A320 Driver B)

[post="311968"][/post]​

Fangs among other things come "out"

 

[justaumechanic]

That is the most selfish statement anyone has ever put on this forum..

If it were not for America West your career expectations would be fighting for the greeter at WalMart!! Remember you were the one in Chapter 11 and needing a friend to get out not AmericaWest.

The merger owes you nothing, not even a job.. If you feel so strongly about all that you have given quit.. Show everyone that you are so passionate about what you feel is fair.. Show them, quit. Stand up for yourself.

I remember clearly the Piedmont merger.. I remember everyone saying "Put them at the bottom we bought them".. Well buddy AmericaWest bought you.. Simple as that.. The investors backed Doug and his team not your buddy and pal Bruce the Sub driver!! They forked over the money to Doug so he could make this dream come true. To top if off, contact the SEC and ask them who bought who. You will get a straight answer.. AmericaWest bought you. So if you are a non-piedmont pilot, how does it feel? Bad huh.. Selfish, you are totally selfish.

You deserve nothing but a paycheck for your weeks worth of work.. Anything beyond that is a gift.

Date of Hire is Unity and Unity is Date of Hire.

And yes we do deserve to go to the top of the list. We paid for it with our pensions, work rules, vacation, sick leave, quality of life.

The Parker/Lakefield dream would never have been a possible without the sacrifices of the USAirways employees.

We bring lots of flying and lots of retirements to the merger. Who should benefit from the USAirways atrrition? Certainly the USAirways pilots, including the furloughees.

[post="311860"][/post]​

 

[nycbusdriver]

That is the most selfish statement anyone has ever put on this forum..

If it were not for America West your career expectations would be fighting for the greeter at WalMart!! Remember you were the one in Chapter 11 and needing a friend to get out not AmericaWest.

The merger owes you nothing, not even a job.. If you feel so strongly about all that you have given quit.. Show everyone that you are so passionate about what you feel is fair.. Show them, quit. Stand up for yourself.

I remember clearly the Piedmont merger.. I remember everyone saying "Put them at the bottom we bought them".. Well buddy AmericaWest bought you.. Simple as that.. The investors backed Doug and his team not your buddy and pal Bruce the Sub driver!! They forked over the money to Doug so he could make this dream come true. To top if off, contact the SEC and ask them who bought who. You will get a straight answer.. AmericaWest bought you. So if you are a non-piedmont pilot, how does it feel? Bad huh.. Selfish, you are totally selfish.

You deserve nothing but a paycheck for your weeks worth of work.. Anything beyond that is a gift.

[post="312005"][/post]​

That universe you're living in....is there any oxygen there at all?