Alpa Merger Seniority Integration

[javaboy]

perhaps its time to spitball some possible solutions, maybe someone has an idea that just might work.


well lets see, Date of hire? Slotting? weighted averages? ouji board?

try this

every U retirement goes to a U pilot
every widebody slot goes to a U pilot
AWA ordered airplanes get AWA pilots
U ordered airplanes (280 airbuses) get U pilots

now thats not perfect but figure something from it (a derivative of it if you will)

1. U pilots do not wish to give up DOH
2. AWA pilots fear (i would imagine) stagnation (not job loss)
3. of course at the end of what 6 years 80% of the U list will be gone and then AWA pilots will have all those hulls with nobody infront of them.

how about this,

DOH, with 7year fence (covers just about all U retirements) each year however many retirements there are then the fence is cut from the top by that same amount. so if 200 pilots retire, then 200 in the combined list can now cross bid (widebodies, bases ect...) at the end of 7 years no fence, complete DOH there would be virtually nothing left of the U list.

ok let the comments fly.

i got more but thats just a taste....

 

[BoeingBoy]

3. of course at the end of what 6 years 80% of the U list will be gone and then AWA pilots will have all those hulls with nobody infront of them.

If we're tossing around ideas, might as well use accurate numbers.....

As of the last permanent bid there were 4732 pilots on the East list. This includes everyone - furloughed, disability, supervisory, those on leave..

Of these 4732, 1025 will be 60 by 12/31/2010, or just over 5 years from now. This includes everyone whether line pilot, supervisory, medical, leave (personal or military), or furloughed (including J4J & MDA). This is 21.7% of the total seniority list.

During the following 5 years - 1/1/2011 thru 12/31/2015 - there are 1373 pilots who will reach age 60. So in just over 10 years 50.7% of the East seniority list will retire.

Jim

 

[Swaayze]

And I bet only 1/3 furloughees returns, dropping another 1000 off the list. West pilots will reap huge benefits from the attrition at East, even if it does go DOH.

If we're tossing around ideas, might as well use accurate numbers.....

As of the last permanent bid there were 4732 pilots on the East list. This includes everyone - furloughed, disability, supervisory, those on leave..

Of these 4732, 1025 will be 60 by 12/31/2010, or just over 5 years from now. This includes everyone whether line pilot, supervisory, medical, leave (personal or military), or furloughed (including J4J & MDA). This is 21.7% of the total seniority list.

During the following 5 years - 1/1/2011 thru 12/31/2015 - there are 1373 pilots who will reach age 60. So in just over 10 years 50.7% of the East seniority list will retire.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

I think it'd be higher than 1/3, but that's just my opinion. It's based on over 1/4 being in J4J or MDA positions - presumably they'd nearly all return. So I'd guess close to 1/2 of the 1500+ would return if given the chance. Just for reference, that's about what happened with the recalls in the late 90's.

The problem then becomes which of the 1500+ return - generally older, younger, or a mixture across the age spectrum. The answer to that question would go a long way toward pinning down the actual East retirement picture. Unfortunately, the answer won't come until recalls start occuring.

Jim

 

[iflyjetz]

I think that anyone expecting/demanding DOH or stapling will be disappointed.
I'd expect slotting based on equipment and seat. Since U flies bigger iron, they'll probably get most of the double digit seniority numbers. I'd expect most of U's furloughees to be stapled, regardless of DOH.

If the U pilots take a look at the last time that a bankrupt company merged with one not bankrupt (AMR/TWA), they'll see some unpleasant results. That case doesn't fully apply here, but AWA's MEC could certainly point to that seniority integration.
Both sides should be very careful as to what they ask the arbitrator for (and this WILL go to arbitration); he could easily punish the greedy party.

 

[aquagreen73s]

>>I think that anyone expecting/demanding DOH or stapling will be disappointed.<<

I agree. It's unfair plus it would be cost prohibitive due to retraining.

>>I'd expect slotting based on equipment and seat.<<

An easy and economical way to merge the lists. The union, arbitrator and the airline all want the same goal: to get this integration done and head off any protests or appeals. They will do all they can to follow precedent so as to rebut any challenges.


>>Since U flies bigger iron, they'll probably get most of the double digit seniority numbers.<<

Agree.

>>If the U pilots take a look at the last time that a bankrupt company merged with one not bankrupt (AMR/TWA), they'll see some unpleasant results. That case doesn't fully apply here, but AWA's MEC could certainly point to that seniority integration.<<

But the PanAm-National merger directly applies. And that was straight longevity for the top part of the seniority lists, and then dovetailing for the rest. That's the scenario you outlined above. It's been done before and will be done again.

>>Both sides should be very careful as to what they ask the arbitrator for (and this WILL go to arbitration); he could easily punish the greedy party. <<
Couldn't agree more although I doubt he or she would take it out on a pilot group, just on account for the actions of a couple of pilots. There would be strong messenges sent that the arbitrator is not happy with a side's unreasonablility, that message would filter back to the pilot group, and then viola...the particular negotiators would be fired. End of story.

 

[iflyjetz]

But the PanAm-National merger directly applies. And that was straight longevity for the top part of the seniority lists, and then dovetailing for the rest. That's the scenario you outlined above. It's been done before and will be done again.

Dude, sorry, I'm not old enough to remember the PanAm-National merger and I was too lazy to look it up when you originally referenced it in a previous post. Have you got a good link that describes the merging of the lists?

This is a highly contentious issue for both sides; I'm hoping that cool heads prevail.

 

[UseYourHead]

A more recent arb award was the Air Canada/Canadian award around 2001 or so. I think it goes along these lines too.

>>I think that anyone expecting/demanding DOH or stapling will be disappointed.<<

I agree. It's unfair plus it would be cost prohibitive due to retraining.

>>I'd expect slotting based on equipment and seat.<<

An easy and economical way to merge the lists. The union, arbitrator and the airline all want the same goal: to get this integration done and head off any protests or appeals. They will do all they can to follow precedent so as to rebut any challenges.
>>Since U flies bigger iron, they'll probably get most of the double digit seniority numbers.<<

Agree.

>>If the U pilots take a look at the last time that a bankrupt company merged with one not bankrupt (AMR/TWA), they'll see some unpleasant results. That case doesn't fully apply here, but AWA's MEC could certainly point to that seniority integration.<<

But the PanAm-National merger directly applies. And that was straight longevity for the top part of the seniority lists, and then dovetailing for the rest. That's the scenario you outlined above. It's been done before and will be done again.

>>Both sides should be very careful as to what they ask the arbitrator for (and this WILL go to arbitration); he could easily punish the greedy party. <<
Couldn't agree more although I doubt he or she would take it out on a pilot group, just on account for the actions of a couple of pilots. There would be strong messenges sent that the arbitrator is not happy with a side's unreasonablility, that message would filter back to the pilot group, and then viola...the particular negotiators would be fired. End of story.

 

[delldude]

A more recent arb award was the Air Canada/Canadian award around 2001 or so. I think it goes along these lines too.

say pal how we doing??

 

[Hawkhunter]

>>I think that anyone expecting/demanding DOH or stapling will be disappointed.<<

I agree. It's unfair plus it would be cost prohibitive due to retraining.

>>I'd expect slotting based on equipment and seat.<<

An easy and economical way to merge the lists. The union, arbitrator and the airline all want the same goal: to get this integration done and head off any protests or appeals. They will do all they can to follow precedent so as to rebut any challenges.
>>Since U flies bigger iron, they'll probably get most of the double digit seniority numbers.<<

Agree.

>>If the U pilots take a look at the last time that a bankrupt company merged with one not bankrupt (AMR/TWA), they'll see some unpleasant results. That case doesn't fully apply here, but AWA's MEC could certainly point to that seniority integration.<<

But the PanAm-National merger directly applies. And that was straight longevity for the top part of the seniority lists, and then dovetailing for the rest. That's the scenario you outlined above. It's been done before and will be done again.

>>Both sides should be very careful as to what they ask the arbitrator for (and this WILL go to arbitration); he could easily punish the greedy party. <<
Couldn't agree more although I doubt he or she would take it out on a pilot group, just on account for the actions of a couple of pilots. There would be strong messenges sent that the arbitrator is not happy with a side's unreasonablility, that message would filter back to the pilot group, and then viola...the particular negotiators would be fired. End of story.

Relitive position is a windfall for the AWA piolts. As far as AMR/TWA two different unions. It seems the AWA pilots want it all. Talk about greed. I will take my chances with an arbitrator. With no bumping rights or flush what training cost are you talking about? All of you 2 year wonders are salivating at the attrition rate at AAA. If there are fences then what is the problem. To me it is a clear case of the AWA pilots wanting it all. See you in court.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Arbitration is the place to be. After that, no cryin from anyone. But above all else, get it out of the union's hands and put it in front of an arbitrator! The worst thing that could happen is some midnight, behind the door "agreement" brokered by ALPO. It would wreck the pilot group.

As for slotting, don't assume it would be one for one or tailed in such a way that the bottom flying UAir guy is paired with the bottom AWA guy. There will be some sort of slotting but consideration will be given to age and longevity as well. I expect the number one UAIR guy on furlough won't be much worse off than the bottom UAIR pilot flying. If he were markedly worse off solely because of his "furlough" status, then we're getting away from fairness and into pure arbitrariness in dictating peoples' lives and careers. The number one guy on furlough all of a sudden falls way behind the bottom flying guy, just ahead of him. Not cool. Make your arguments and let the chips fall where they may. It'll be a subjective, gut instinct decision on the part of the arbitrator, but that is just the way it is and is the best way for all.

 

[ClueByFour]

Relitive position is a windfall for the AWA piolts.

How do you figure?

 

[zflygrl]

:angry: I'm not a pilot....but I am a pilots wife....I have been apart of this industry for way to many years then I wish to remember. I have to have my say.....now most of you will just brush this post off as..."you don't know what your talking about..." I do.....I have been there...got the TO-shirt blah blah blah.

I find it really incomprehensible that the old us airways pilots...feel they should go to the top of the seniority list. Why do I feel this way? First...if it wasn't for the cash behind the AWA name...and that is why the cash came around......us airways would be history. Lets face it....what did the old us airways have to offer....money...nope.....reputation.....nope.....a record of taking airlines over and hammering the employees of the old airline....YES. And I understand what Wolfe did to you besides turning the UAL paint job upside-down....and if you want to believe what the WSJ and the NYT printed in their papers....this is not a merger it is a take-over......but merger sounds nicer and you get more tax breaks. And as for the verbiage "we had to give a lot up..." well let me tell you this the AWA pilots have been giving a lot up for years. I feel it should be one for one........one, you us airways pilots should be happy AWA wanted to grow....and one other thing....if not for this merger...you would all be out working for the likes of mesa..ryan..omni..etc. I have told my husband if he gets screwed be this merger I shall get all the wives together and sue ALPA for not protecting his seniority or his future....after all isn't that why he pay dues......or is it to help Mr. Worth (less) pay for all those expensive suit's he wear.....how much is he making a year now??? Well there you have it....the Irish came out in me a wee bit.

Now you can go back to your BS...I'm bigger then you...I deserve more then you fantasies. :rant:

 

[UseYourHead]

Hey Dell,

How's everything? I am getting ready to batten-down the hatches in TPA...if Wilma takes a turn towards us. :-(

Hope all is well with you and yours!

say pal how we doing??

 

[UseYourHead]

Hi zflygrl,

I would not get your pai****s all bunched up over this. What you, your husband, me, AWA pilots, or US Airways pilots thinks should happen will have ZERO bearing on the outcome.

However, how we all treat each other...what we say to each other will have longterm influence on our relationships. EVERYONE deserves respect for what they bring to this airline, to think otherwise is foolish. Where the company goes from here is the most important point, and having a good relationship between all of us is key to how and why we get to where we will get.

I have been through the Piedmont/PSA/USAir/USAir Shuttle mergers and so I do speak from experience. These went date-of hire and then the last slotting. Guess what? There were a whole bunch of people who felt screwed in all cases.

We all have a story, we all have a scenario that works for us...that does not make it fair or right, just your point of view.

Relax, you and all of us are along for the ride

BTW, threating to sue already and you don't if know if your husband will end up being the top A330 International Captain?

:angry: I'm not a pilot....but I am a pilots wife....I have been apart of this industry for way to many years then I wish to remember. I have to have my say.....now most of you will just brush this post off as..."you don't know what your talking about..." I do.....I have been there...got the TO-shirt blah blah blah.

I find it really incomprehensible that the old us airways pilots...feel they should go to the top of the seniority list. Why do I feel this way? First...if it wasn't for the cash behind the AWA name...and that is why the cash came around......us airways would be history. Lets face it....what did the old us airways have to offer....money...nope.....reputation.....nope.....a record of taking airlines over and hammering the employees of the old airline....YES. And I understand what Wolfe did to you besides turning the UAL paint job upside-down....and if you want to believe what the WSJ and the NYT printed in their papers....this is not a merger it is a take-over......but merger sounds nicer and you get more tax breaks. And as for the verbiage "we had to give a lot up..." well let me tell you this the AWA pilots have been giving a lot up for years. I feel it should be one for one........one, you us airways pilots should be happy AWA wanted to grow....and one other thing....if not for this merger...you would all be out working for the likes of mesa..ryan..omni..etc. I have told my husband if he gets screwed be this merger I shall get all the wives together and sue ALPA for not protecting his seniority or his future....after all isn't that why he pay dues......or is it to help Mr. Worth (less) pay for all those expensive suit's he wear.....how much is he making a year now??? Well there you have it....the Irish came out in me a wee bit.

Now you can go back to your BS...I'm bigger then you...I deserve more then you fantasies. :rant: