ALPA Thread 12/30 to 1/6--ALL ALPA/USAPA discussed here

[b737fo]

Bottom line 924 former PSA pilot on the A330 now. You were given super seniority on the List in 1989 when Usairways bought PSA. They left the routes got rid of the planes and gates and kept your lucky fat ass on the pilot list by date of hire, while you counter parts at AIR Cal were put on the bottom of the American Airlines pilot seniortity list.

You live in California, fly international in Phl and you got yours. You are a coward sir.

"Fat ass" and "coward"? Do you not live by your own words anymore?

[post="405028"]nostradamus' quote on employee respect[/post]

 

[CactusFlyr]

If you've 17+ years line flying, I've full respect for that. The "I brought a job" BS doesn't strike any chord though.

Enjoy the game/Have a good one.

It is a solid and simple fact, you can't have someone else's anything. This whole "I am entitled to it because... " doesn't fly either. What is so hard about that?

 

[P51Pilot]

It is a solid and simple fact, you can't have someone else's anything. This whole "I am entitled to it because... " doesn't fly either. What is so hard about that?

See, you don't just want protection for the job or potential advancement you brought or you would accept DOH with a condition protecting exactly that and advancement within those positions. You want to leap frog people who have been around longer for East positions, vacancies, etc. when such jobs were at the other airline and the flying it brought to the merger where there are people in line, who have been around longer. You keep the mantra of what you brought, which is A320, B737, B757 C/O or F/O in PHX and LAS and nothing more. Why do you feel entitled to advance into C/O positions or Trans Atlantic, Latin American, and China flying or really any flying generated out of PHL, CLT, BOS, DCA, or LGA ahead of a East pilot who was hired before you? You didn't bring those jobs to the merger, so why are you entitled to them?

Why are you entitled? Because of a flawed union? Theft is easy? You foundation lies in being a scab airline and use to such behavior?

hmmm..............

 

[CactusFlyr]

See, you don't just want protection for the job or potential advancement you brought or you would accept DOH with a condition protecting exactly that and advancement within those positions. You want to leap frog people who have been around longer for East positions, vacancies, etc. when such jobs were at the other airline and the flying it brought to the merger where there are people in line, who have been around longer. You keep the mantra of what you brought, which is A320, B737, B757 C/O or F/O in PHX and LAS and nothing more. Why do you feel entitled to advance into C/O positions or Trans Atlantic, Latin American, and China flying or really any flying generated out of PHL, CLT, BOS, DCA, or LGA ahead of a East pilot who was hired before you? You didn't bring those jobs to the merger, so why are you entitled to them?

Why are you entitled? Because of a flawed union? Theft is easy? You foundation lies in being a scab airline and use to such behavior?

hmmm..............

I will be happy if relative seniority for people on the property is the benchmark for all future mergers. As for the Int'l flying and such, your side got the top positions to protect this to the extent possible. You could possibly have protected it more if you would have negotiated, but that is under the bridge now. The fact is that it was arbitrated. As for the west entitlement and theft thing, I call BS. You know that is not the case. How is keeping mine considered theft.

 

[P51Pilot]

I will be happy if relative seniority for people on the property is the benchmark for all future mergers. As for the Int'l flying and such, your side got the top positions to protect this to the extent possible. You could possibly have protected it more if you would have negotiated, but that is under the bridge now. The fact is that it was arbitrated. As for the west entitlement and theft thing, I call BS. You know that is not the case. How is keeping mine considered theft.

So a fence protecting all the C/O positions, block holding postions, monthly bid rights in PHL, CLT, BOS, DCA, and LGA to East pilots hired before you would be acceptable right?

Oh it was arbitrated which makes it ok.

So when USAPA takes over and ignore the arbitration and offers protections for exactly what you brought to the merger, you should have no gripes as long as they don't take any PHX or LAS positions or future upgrades there, right? You will be keeping yours at that point and only yours and should be quite happy with that, right? If that is what is offered in a USAPA contract, I guess they have your vote then.

Or is it that you received a windfall(lottery ticket) in violation of the policy(guidelines, whatever......) and by god you are going to cry and stomp to get that lottery ticket office to open up and give you that windfall. The East pilots are not fighting to get a windfall but to protect against one and I guess that is a difference in being a unionist and a thief. Don't even bring ALPA and their position into it. They like always, seek the easy road, won't risk any lawsuits, and want to happily keep collecting dues. They haven't taken ownership of anything in years.

 

[luvn737s]

To answer your earlier question, I was a A320 F/O blockholder (50%) the day before the merger and I am a A320 F/O blockholder (50%) on the combined seniority list.

How hard has it been to explain that simple fact to your fellow pilots? I still have this faith in them that they'll understand before all US pilots are thrown into the chaos that is U-SAPs agenda.

 

[luvn737s]

So when USAPA takes over and ignore the arbitration and offers protections for exactly what you brought to the merger, you should have no gripes as long as they don't take any PHX or LAS positions or future upgrades there, right? You will be keeping yours at that point and only yours and should be quite happy with that, right? If that is what is offered in a USAPA contract, I guess they have your vote then.

Or is it that you received a windfall(lottery ticket) in violation of the policy(guidelines, whatever......) and by god you are going to cry and stomp to get that lottery ticket office to open up and give you that windfall. The East pilots are not fighting to get a windfall but to protect against one and I guess that is a difference in being a unionist and a thief. Don't even bring ALPA and their position into it. They like always, seek the easy road, won't risk any lawsuits, and want to happily keep collecting dues. They haven't taken ownership of anything in years.

Why is this so complicated? The Nicolau decision set the seniority placement as of the date of the merger. Why extrapolate beyond that with fences that carry out for years? Was the arbitration board tasked with ensuring future fairness indefinitely, or fairness as of the date of the merger?

 

[EastUS]

How hard has it been to explain that simple fact to your fellow pilots? I still have this faith in them that they'll understand before all US pilots are thrown into the chaos that is U-SAPs agenda.

How hard is it to explain the seemingly obvious to you out west?: " I've no interest in displacing any of the west folks either. It'd be fun to fly Honolulu shuttles..but that isn't my right...it's their flying. I don't feel that they should take an east left seat ahead of you if they've far less time on the job....period."

Your "faith" is duly noted. It's the same sort of perverted "faith" that Alpoids always have. You hope/pray/etc for cowardly and wholesale submission just to further your own inteests, make your own life easier, and thus ensure a future of at best mediochre conditions for all pilots in general...just so long as you personally benefit. Good luck with that BS this time.

No sense in ever testing any "wall" is there?

luvn737s: "Why is this so complicated? The Nicolau decision set the seniority placement as of the date of the merger. Why extrapolate beyond that with fences that carry out for years? Was the arbitration board tasked with ensuring future fairness indefinitely, or fairness as of the date of the merger?" OK. Fairness at the date of merger doesn't make a great case for anything other than you keep what you have out west...we do the same in the east. Is that not sufficiently simple?

Btw: You've just blown your "cover" in case you hadn't noticed = Observing that, at best "fairness at the date of merger" supposedly trumps "ensuring future fairness" just dropped your real cards on the table face up for all to see. Why tacitly admit that "future fairness" has clearly been totally hosed up by your precious St Nic? 😉 And..you wonder why we don't want any more Alpo-amateurs doing future negotiating? 😉

 

[luvn737s]

Your "faith" is duly noted. It's the same sort of perverted "faith" that Alpoids always have. You hope/pray/etc for cowardly and wholesale submission just to further your own inteests, make your own life easier, and thus ensure a future of at best mediochre conditions for all pilots in general...just so long as you personally benefit. Good luck with that BS this time.

No sense in ever testing any "wall" is there?

What submission is there in following through with the decision rendered by a mutually agreed-to arbitrator? What submission is there in following through with mutually agree-to joint negotiations?

And why "test" a wall that US pilots built and U-SAPs has slated for destruction, since it puts everyone at risk for crushing them in the process? Has U-SAPs convinced everyone that collateral damage is something that should be accepted?

 

[JetMonkey]

See, you don't just want protection for the job or potential advancement you brought or you would accept DOH with a condition protecting exactly that and advancement within those positions. You want to leap frog people who have been around longer for East positions, vacancies, etc. when such jobs were at the other airline and the flying it brought to the merger where there are people in line, who have been around longer. You keep the mantra of what you brought, which is A320, B737, B757 C/O or F/O in PHX and LAS and nothing more. Why do you feel entitled to advance into C/O positions or Trans Atlantic, Latin American, and China flying or really any flying generated out of PHL, CLT, BOS, DCA, or LGA ahead of a East pilot who was hired before you? You didn't bring those jobs to the merger, so why are you entitled to them?

Why are you entitled? Because of a flawed union? Theft is easy? You foundation lies in being a scab airline and use to such behavior?

hmmm..............

Very easy, those hired before were FURLOUGHED! Plain and simple, and they knew USAir was history, with no chance of coming back, but you guys will never admit to that will you? Because of the merger, all these "synergies" that now require someone from west of the mississippi to fly all the way to CLT to go into latin america has added to the stagnation out this way. And you want us wait extra years for a possible upgrade in case someone who would want to move out east for it (not that many would anyway) but the choice SHOULD be theirs to make. Who's to say AWA wouldn't of expanded into latin america? When I got hired the talk around the training center was Belize and Panama was next. All these new routes out of PHL and CLT have been created BECAUSE of the merger with AWA, So those new opportunities should include west pilots. We were part of the merger, we should be part of the growth.

 

[EastUS]

What submission is there in following through with the decision rendered by a mutually agreed-to arbitrator? What submission is there in following through with mutually agree-to joint negotiations?

And why "test" a wall that US pilots built and U-SAPs has slated for destruction, since it puts everyone at risk for crushing them in the process? Has U-SAPs convinced everyone that collateral damage is something that should be accepted?

"What submission is there in following through with the decision rendered by a mutually agreed-to arbitrator?" If you don't see it...no opthamologist can help you as you're selectively blind.

"Has U-SAPs convinced everyone that collateral damage is something that should be accepted?" By no means...hence the fight with Alpo It seems that your position's one that whole heartedly embraces "collateral damage"...just so long as you're not amongst those damaged 😉

 

[EastUS]

Who's to say AWA wouldn't of expanded into latin america? When I got hired the talk around the training center was Belize and Panama was next. All these new routes out of PHL and CLT have been created BECAUSE of the merger with AWA, So those new opportunities should include west pilots. We were part of the merger, we should be part of the growth.

:blink: Puhleeeaze....you're killin' me At Eastern? I was told to expect a long and very rewading career. At PSA?..An upgrade to MD80 Captain within no more than 5-7 years.

Parker: "Without this merger, as a three year FO you would probably be out of a job" :blink:

I don't disagree that future expansion should include west pilots...but not at "super seniority" positions. What's the possible argument for such? Let me guess = You "brought" those jobs to the table? 😉

 

[JetMonkey]

:blink: Puhleeeaze....you're killin' me At Eastern? I was told to expect a long and very rewading career. At PSA?..An upgrade to MD80 Captain within no more than 5-7 years.

Parker: "Without this merger, as a three year FO you would probably be out of a job" :blink:

I don't disagree that future expansion should include west pilots...but not at "super seniority" positions. What's the possible argument for such? Let me guess = You "brought" those jobs to the table? 😉

What did a furloughed pilot bring? Experience?.... 🙄 So what. We all bring that on day 1.

 

[EastUS]

What did a furloughed pilot bring? Experience?.... 🙄 So what. We all bring that on day 1.

They "brought" years of service that allowed this place to even survive....and...I'm sure that your experience is vast indeed, and you should certainly gain any future openings ahead of those less fortunate in previous circumstances. Not to put too fine a point on it, but, having flown with a handfull of recent recalls/furloughed folks....I'll note that they aren't at a "day one" level of experience, (Wow! Look Ma!..A big jet plane!!) and I've been greatfull for that 😉

 

[JetMonkey]

They "brought" years of service that allowed this place to even survive....and...I'm sure that your experience is vast indeed, and you should certainly gain any future openings ahead of those less fortunate in previous circumstances.

Sorry to sound so harsh but, years of service don't mean squat when your furloughed. If it did you'd see it in the merger policy. What you DO see however is "career expectations" at time of merger. And what most east guys have a hard time swallowing is.... mine was greater than theirs, age and longevity has nothing to do with it. I don't mine being at the bottom of the list (that's where I was, and that's where I should be) What I don't want is to be at the bottom of the furloughed list. I will not pay back with my career what someone else took away.