ALPA Thread 12/30 to 1/6--ALL ALPA/USAPA discussed here

[EastUS]

Sorry to sound so harsh but, years of service don't mean squat when your furloughed. If it did you'd see it in the merger policy. What you DO see however is "career expectations" at time of merger. And what most east guys have a hard time swallowing is.... mine was greater than theirs, age and longevity has nothing to do with it. I don't mine being at the bottom of the list (that's where I was, and that's where I should be) What I don't want is to be at the bottom of the furloughed list. I will not pay back with my career what someone else took away.

"If it did you'd see it in the merger policy" Not personally much concerned with Alpo's notions., nor does citing their "wisdom" much impress me. One thing that "years of experinece" has shown me is that Alpo can always be depended on to let line pilots down in favor of their own interests.

I'll again merely note Parker's observation as to your "career expectations" in that "Without this merger, as a three year FO, you would probably be out of a job".

"career expectations" are nothing more than absurd fantasies based upon propoganda and wishfull imaginations. People you know of and/or work with will die from various causes before ever reaching retirement...possibly you or/and I for that matter. Should "career expectations" include some provision for that? Do you have life insurance?...Why? Don't your "expectations" cover all possibilities? How does anyone, other than a complete fool, truly "expect" any specific future? Can you pretend that you foresaw this merger years ago?...perhaps even at the time of your hiring aboard with AWA? Can you kindly tell all of us details about the next merger/sale/extinction that'll come within the industry?.....Spare me the childish "expectations" gibberish as being any sort of a "defense" for unmitigated selfishness.Years of service may mean nothing to you, but excuse my hearty laughter at fantasies about "expectations" as well. For what cold comfort's available to us all within the furloghed folks issue: Not very many accepted the invitation to return to this mess.

 

[P51Pilot]

Very easy, those hired before were FURLOUGHED! Plain and simple, and they knew USAir was history, with no chance of coming back, but you guys will never admit to that will you? Because of the merger, all these "synergies" that now require someone from west of the mississippi to fly all the way to CLT to go into latin america has added to the stagnation out this way. And you want us wait extra years for a possible upgrade in case someone who would want to move out east for it (not that many would anyway) but the choice SHOULD be theirs to make. Who's to say AWA wouldn't of expanded into latin america? When I got hired the talk around the training center was Belize and Panama was next. All these new routes out of PHL and CLT have been created BECAUSE of the merger with AWA, So those new opportunities should include west pilots. We were part of the merger, we should be part of the growth.

Any talk of who saved who is BS. It doesn't matter whether it was Parker's deal, or Lakefield who brought the financing to put this together. You personally didn't have anything to do with it any more than any East pilot. U R A pilot, and you fly airplanes for a living and live in a profession built on seniority which you will accept as LOS at your own carrier but want it defined as something else when it might give you access to something you had no hope of before the merger. You didn't save anyone, you just fly airplanes, so get over yourself. You are blue collar labor and nothing more and LOS rules the roost in blue collar labor. Conditions and restrictions are the only thing that should have been discussed and only to offer protections and ease integration. ALPA has fouled up what should be simple, so the mistake will be corrected. If it takes a new union to do it, so be it. Time will tell where the chips fall.

Your airline operated in the lowest yielding markets in the country, under the shadow of Southwest, period, and unlike the East who has generated all the profits since the merger, the West would be losing money right now. There was no growth potential and any airbuses would have replaced 73's, which likely would have ceased as the West's ability to finance anything was going away absent the merger. The profits earned in the last 2 1/2 years came from the sacrifices of East pilots and its funny how they appeared after the pension termination and concessions which occurred as exiting BK 2. You can bill it to the merger if it makes you feel better, but it is the East pilots sacrifices and the revenue generation of their airline that has made it so and propped you up. If you want to share in the growth gained by the synergies of joining into the highest yielding markets, then wait in turn or don't. Most on the East are perfectly happy going into any M&A activity with separate contracts and pilot seniority lists. It will be a real eye opener to see where the value is and what is sold off or outsourced to the likes of MESA.

The selfishness you cling to will just aid the cause of denying what you would sell your mother to get. If they haven't realized it yet, the company probably realizes what a disaster it would be to put the groups together, more day by day. Any wonder why no sweet hear deal has been offered? The cost savings have been achieved and probably are exceeded in regards to pilots as this thing drags on. Parker in more than one article has stated there really are no cost savings by combing the pilot groups. Maybe some minor administrative ones, but not much more. Keeping what you had before the merger is probably as much in the cards for you anything. Good luck with that.

 

[CactusFlyr]

Deleted by poster

 

[CactusFlyr]

So a fence protecting all the C/O positions, block holding postions, monthly bid rights in PHL, CLT, BOS, DCA, and LGA to East pilots hired before you would be acceptable right?

Oh it was arbitrated which makes it ok.

So when USAPA takes over and ignore the arbitration and offers protections for exactly what you brought to the merger, you should have no gripes as long as they don't take any PHX or LAS positions or future upgrades there, right? You will be keeping yours at that point and only yours and should be quite happy with that, right? If that is what is offered in a USAPA contract, I guess they have your vote then.

Or is it that you received a windfall(lottery ticket) in violation of the policy(guidelines, whatever......) and by god you are going to cry and stomp to get that lottery ticket office to open up and give you that windfall. The East pilots are not fighting to get a windfall but to protect against one and I guess that is a difference in being a unionist and a thief. Don't even bring ALPA and their position into it. They like always, seek the easy road, won't risk any lawsuits, and want to happily keep collecting dues. They haven't taken ownership of anything in years.

Would have been great had it been negotiated. You do not get a do-over in this business. USAPA will get nothing from me if they do infact get on the property- except for a nice lawsuit. But I don't see that happening. It is next to impossible to overturn binding arbitration, but you can certainly try if you wish. I am not going to do anything, the legal system will take care of it for me.

 

[P51Pilot]

Would have been great had it been negotiated. You do not get a do-over in this business. USAPA will get nothing from me if they do infact get on the property- except for a nice lawsuit. But I don't see that happening. It is next to impossible to overturn binding arbitration, but you can certainly try if you wish. I am not going to do anything, the legal system will take care of it for me.

ALPA is a joke of a national union. Instead of a mandated policy that would be clear, concise and consistent with some universal principle as expected with a union, or a national union, the non-policy as it were was sure to have committees stacked with preening roosters on both sides, equally convinced of their vast intellects and personal agenda's(pilots and all)l and inevitably lead to the train wreck now occurring. The West tried to replace ALPA, this is something you should have figured out.

USAPA isn't going to try and overturn anything. They will go into section 6 talks and tell US Airways any acceptable contract will have the language they feel is correct in the seniority section of the contract, which will not be seniority as defined by Nicalou. It will be LOS with provision to ensure base protections, advancement protection and something fair with regards to furlough and of reasonable length or quantifiable in expiring. That section of the contract is as negotiable as any and LOS has stood the test of the courts as being fair to all. There will be lawsuits no doubt and likely a decade later the court will weigh in.

 

[flynomore]

Would have been great had it been negotiated. You do not get a do-over in this business. USAPA will get nothing from me if they do infact get on the property- except for a nice lawsuit. But I don't see that happening. It is next to impossible to overturn binding arbitration, but you can certainly try if you wish. I am not going to do anything, the legal system will take care of it for me.

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Nice to say, but it takes two to negotiate. You may think that the AAA group did not negotiate despite the many conditions and restrictions listed in the final submission to the arbitrator that in fact protected PHX/LAS upgrades by percentage. I have never seen anything from the AWA group any different than the 1:1 to 1:1.5 ratio plan. So from my perch there was negotiating on one side.

This binding arbitration becomes binding when and if a joint contract happens. Good luck getting to the lucky combination to make that happen. Nothing legal to be done until there is a joint contract.

 

[EastUS]

Would have been great had it been negotiated.....

Yep, and an excellent question to ask of the Alpo geniuses as they hunker down in defence of their standard BS is; WHY wasn't something reasonable, and fully acceptable to both parties actually negotiated?. I'll offer that as fully reasonable to ask...instead of my personal question of "Just WTF DO you Alpo jerkoffs supposedly even DO for a living?" :angry:
I offer this as but one recently observable major, nay, more like a monumental failure, that's fully typical of Alpo's amateur "negotiators". Ummm...anyone really all that eager to place whatever lengths of careers ahead into their "capable hands"? As pilots..we've all a tendancy towards pride, if not even unseeming arrogance about our personal abilities. That's well and good in the sky, or any other arena within which we've full expertise individually, but isn't a warranty of fine mettle when seated at any negotioating table. Our very arrogance is played like an orchestra of violins during negotiations by serious professional sharks hired by "management"...and the pathetic degradation of the lifestyles of pilots today is the sad legacy. It takes no great genius to be a self-obsessed greedy shyster...but: It takes a sizeable degree of awareness to actually understand such people, and triumph over them within thier own "game"....and pilots?...well....No one wants to "ask for directions"..and egos get in the way. I make those observations based purely on myself, and note that I barely started truly pushing my own arrogance aside within the last decade..and I'm "ancient" 😉 From "The Book of Eastwood" = "A man's gotta' know his limitations"...and I'm no politician, I've business training but haven't applied such on any grand scale..and I'd hardly think myself the best man to cut the nuts off people who've done nothing other than serve their own self interests in corporate enviornments their whole lives. Pilots aren't the right people to have negotiating...and..we continually see the results. I'll go a step further with that. If one seeks a life as a "politician"...why then first don an airline costume rather than run for congress? Laughable?..perhaps...but think on the true mentality of the "professional Alpoids" that rarely, or never actually fly...depending on how many Alpo merit badges they've aquired..and how far up they've yet gone within the "association". What this essentially leaves us with is junior grade idiots that aren't "up to the job" at any level...and...they're going to "make things better" for all of us? 😉

From my own observations..Alpo's been nothing more than a disaster ever since deregulation, and isn't getting the slightest bit better with time. ANY aspect of true "National Union" versus this pathetic "association" of warring tribes could/should/would have made huge differences in the current situations of every pilot in commercial aviation today. Could/should/would have don't actually play in the present tense though, so we must do what we can with what's possible now.

 

[traderjake]

How hard has it been to explain that simple fact to your fellow pilots? I still have this faith in them that they'll understand before all US pilots are thrown into the chaos that is U-SAPs agenda.

75% of the Captains I fly with (CLT based) agree with me and say an ALPA negotiated joint contract is the best course. A signed USAPA card is not necessarily a vote for USAPA.

Almost none of the F/Os I speak with agree.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

FYI:
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Friday, January 04, 2008

INFORMATIONAL MEETING TO BE HELD IN CHARLOTTE ON JANUARY 22

Fellow Pilots,

I have been involved in ALPA for nearly a decade. I first got involved on the communications committee and I was elected as your representative last year. While I was involved in communications I thought I had a pretty good handle on the functioning of the union. Honestly, until I became a representative I did not have a clear picture of how the union works.

For those of you who have not flown with me over the past year, you can imagine that each trip I fly is a “mobile union meeting.â€￾ Trips give me an opportunity to answer questions and give explanations to things that are going on around here. For those who have flown with me, thank you for the questions and observations because it has given me a chance to sharpen my understanding of the pulse of our pilots. Since I am a reserve pilot, I generally fly with a different pilot each trip so I theoretically should fly with each 757 First Officer during my three year tenure. Still that represents only fifteen percent of the pilots based in Charlotte.

When I am on the ground, either at home or at work, I generally spend a couple of hours a day talking with pilots. I am either fielding questions or dealing with specific issues for individual pilots.

With over a thousand pilots based in Charlotte, it will be difficult for me to have individual contact with each of you during the course of the year. We certainly have council letters but letters can only go so far. We have council meetings, but it is difficult for everybody to attend.

With all that is going on with our union, Lance, Lyle and I have decided to hold some informational meetings in Charlotte as a way for you to become more informed about recent events. The first of these will be held in the Charlotte airport terminal on January 22nd. We will meet in the conference room behind the Business Center in the center of the food court on the main floor. The meeting time will be from 10:00 am until 4:00 pm.

We have invited some folks from the offices in Herndon to come and be available to answer questions. This will be a good opportunity to seek answers to your questions.

The list of invitees (alphabetically) from Herndon is Chris Bebee, Jonathon Cohen, Steve Hodgson, Ron Rindfleisch, Marie Schwartz, Don Skiados, and Bruce York.

Chris Beebe is ALPA’s Vice President of Finance. He is a USAirways pilot and known to many of you. He has worked for this pilot group for many years and is a former MEC Chairman. We invited him because he will be able to explain the finances of ALPA and the financial relationship between us and the association.

Jonathon Cohen is Chief Counsel and Director of the legal department for ALPA. Jonathon specializes in federal court litigation and labor/employment law. He also has expertise in “duty of fair representationâ€￾ issues. We invited him because there seem to be a lot of legal questions about our current situation.

Steve Hodgson is the Manager of the Retirement and Insurance department for ALPA. We invited him to address issues that may occur with a change in representation. If you have any concerns about retirement or insurance this is the guy to chat with.

Ron Rindfleisch is a Senior Communication Specialist and Marie Schwartz is an Assistant Director of Communications with ALPA. They are very familiar with events within the association. They will be able to talk about how our situation fits in with the rest of ALPA.

Don Skiados is Director of Communications for ALPA and manages ALPA’s nationwide communications. He is also in charge of the publication of Air Line Pilot Magazine. He is a good resource for information about ALPA.

Bruce York is an attorney and Director of Representation. Bruce is very familiar with contract information within the association and he will be able to shed light on our negotiations.

We are inviting Doug Mowery to attend. Doug will be able to bring you up to date on events on the Joint Negotiating Committee because he chairs that committee.

We are also inviting Donn Butkovic to attend. Donn is the Chair of ALPA’s national negotiating committee and is on both our Negotiating Committee and the Joint Negotiating Committee. We often get questions about the work on Donn’s committee and this will be a good opportunity for you to come address him personally.

We have chosen the location of the meeting to allow for an informal setting. You can drop by between flights for a few minutes or you can come for as long as you like.

Lance, Lyle and I will be there to help you find the person who can best address any question you might have.

We would like to have you come by and ask questions of the folks who work behind the scenes for all of us.

Fraternally,

Marshall Rogers

 

[prechilill]

USAPA isn't going to try and overturn anything. They will go into section 6 talks and tell US Airways any acceptable contract will have the language they feel is correct in the seniority section of the contract,

So, USAPA's strategy is just pretend the seniority list on Parker's desk just doesn't exist. Okay, now that is funny!
And as for the part about telling USAirways blah blah blah... perhaps you should keep the USAPA first officer's club rhetoric to yourselves. 😉

 

[AWA320]

So, USAPA's strategy is just pretend the seniority list on Parker's desk just doesn't exist. Okay, now that is funny!
And as for the part about telling USAirways blah blah blah... perhaps you should keep the USAPA first officer's club rhetoric to yourselves. 😉

Now what fun would that be?

 

[sharktooth]

Would have been great had it been negotiated. You do not get a do-over in this business. USAPA will get nothing from me if they do infact get on the property- except for a nice lawsuit. But I don't see that happening. It is next to impossible to overturn binding arbitration, but you can certainly try if you wish. I am not going to do anything, the legal system will take care of it for me.

Once again, not one person wants a "do over". As I understand it, the east pilots want to make the "award", moot. So that you do not lose your "relative seniority", there will be something referred to as "conditions and restrictions" levied that will protect your "relative seniority" as long as you play in the former AWA playing field. Aspire to other opportunities and you will wait your turn via well-known policies and procedures.

Not one former AWA pilot need fear losing what they already have nor what they would expect when first hired.

Try not to let your fear drive your actions.

 

[sharktooth]

75% of the Captains I fly with (CLT based) agree with me and say an ALPA negotiated joint contract is the best course. A signed USAPA card is not necessarily a vote for USAPA.

Almost none of the F/Os I speak with agree.

So, now the carpetbaggers originate in PHX and the south sets itself up for yet another drubbing. So sad. (Edited by Mod)

 

[nycbusdriver]

So, USAPA's strategy is just pretend the seniority list on Parker's desk just doesn't exist. Okay, now that is funny!
And as for the part about telling USAirways blah blah blah... perhaps you should keep the USAPA first officer's club rhetoric to yourselves. 😉

No. The Nic list will always exist. But if USAPA and Doug negotiate to ignore it forever and sign a new contract to that effect, then THAT is the fate of Nic. Basically, like the old pre-bankruptcy company stock (US and AW), you can see Nic everyday if you paper the wall with it. And that's all it will be good for. Has it then gone away? No. It's still there. It still exists, just as you say. But as wall paper. (Or fish wrapper...or bird cage liner...)

 

[Freighterguynow]

Why is this so complicated? The Nicolau decision set the seniority placement as of the date of the merger. Why extrapolate beyond that with fences that carry out for years? Was the arbitration board tasked with ensuring future fairness indefinitely, or fairness as of the date of the merger?

Contract talks are voluntary until you grasp the 2 (two) parts to this you'll never understand. Just look at Atlas/ Polar: merger announced 2004, seniority list 2006 yet to even have the first JNC talks 2008.

Nothing binding about a merged contract.