ALPA Thread 12/30 to 1/6--ALL ALPA/USAPA discussed here

[nostradamus]

Low&away,



If your argument is against your fellow professional aviators who wrote every current ALPA policy and approved every salary and benefits package for ALPA employees and approves each and every flight pay loss request for your rep then it is obvious to me that no one dare trust their brethren ever again in this industry. We are all just too greedy for our own good! And I mean USAPA to the Nth degree. Never in my 34 years in this industry have I seen such arrogance, impetuousness, entitlement and greed as I have seen among those promoting USAPA. May they all fail miserably in their efforts and in advancing in this profession for the sake of all the good professional pilots left in this country.

Nic fevor bob



Bob Loblaw
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Posted on: May 30 2007, 08:08 AM


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USA320Pilot comments: Stephan's chairman message was signed by every MEC Representative, clearly indicating the MEC's resolve, which is not the extreme fringe of the (US Airways) pilot group" as the AWA Merger Committee suggests.
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I've never known an ALPA status representative trying to keep the good graces of his local council constituency to be anything other than extreme - generally speaking of course!

Bob

 

[P51Pilot]

Can't have one of your furloughed pilots leap-frogging an active pilot. Never has, never will. I am on a furlough list somewhere and do not expect to jump an active pilot should a merger take place. I really don't expect to have a job if this happens. Your furloughees should feel lucky to have a job.

Happened with Allegheny-Lake Central and again with Allegheny-Mohawk, the latter setting precedent with a CAB ruling dealing with seniority issues in airline mergers. Of course unionism is so much better today than it was in those days. yeah...... 🙄

 

[Tiger 1050]

Gender based emotions you have no control over. You despise scorched earth policy unless it suits your needs.

The gates will be stormed in the next week as far as USAPA goes. Prater and Parker have been talking about their mutual benefits in getting this thing going. You will have frequent battles won, but the war will be lost. The inability to put yourself in the shoes of others will ultimately decide your fate.

Nos,
Not one west person here can fully understand the hell you guys have been through. There is no doubt that you all have suffered. I believe the difference in our point of reference on how we view this ridiculous war is that you feel this is your "home" so to speak. Well regardless of either airlines' financial status on May 18th, no matter who bought who, this is a new airline. And while you have no doubt suffered yourself you cannot ask the west pilots to pay restitution for the crimes committed by management. What I mean is you cannot ask the west to not fully participate in the benefits of this new airline! The name matters not. Who was financially stronger matters not. To me anyhow... Ask yourself and I mean objectively ask if this merger had not taken place do you believe US would have recalled pilots and you would be enjoying the growth you see now? Same goes for the west... However you and your pilot group have effectively blocked us from reaping these added benefits. It's funny your pilot group is rather loudly proclaiming their rightful place in taking these profits for you and you only based on, of all things, career expectations and you claim the west is not worthy of the improvements because of our expectations. Unfortunately for you your fellow pilots also claim that career expectations are a nullified point because they are at best really not based on any fact but more inline with fantasy. So which is it? Do career expectation play a part or do they not? You cannot have it both ways. If you claim you are rightful owners of the growth because of your perceived career expectations then you must then you must accept arguments shooting holes in your expectations claim. And if you agree with your fellow pilots that these expectations are fantasy then how can you claim to be the sole owners of any of the aforementioned benefits? Hmmm... What a terrible twist! It's likely your parents told you many times the share. Well You should have listened to them... Now we find ourselves in one heck of a mess...

 

[EastUS]

Nos,
no matter who bought who, this is a new airline.

I see. That justifies super "seniority" for the west exactly how then? We return to the old Nic axe, and what it's brought us.

 

[nostradamus]

Nos,
Not one west person here can fully understand the hell you guys have been through. There is no doubt that you all have suffered. I believe the difference in our point of reference on how we view this ridiculous war is that you feel this is your "home" so to speak. Well regardless of either airlines' financial status on May 18th, no matter who bought who, this is a new airline. And while you have no doubt suffered yourself you cannot ask the west pilots to pay restitution for the crimes committed by management. What I mean is you cannot ask the west to not fully participate in the benefits of this new airline! The name matters not. Who was financially stronger matters not. To me anyhow... Ask yourself and I mean objectively ask if this merger had not taken place do you believe US would have recalled pilots and you would be enjoying the growth you see now? Same goes for the west... However you and your pilot group have effectively blocked us from reaping these added benefits. It's funny your pilot group is rather loudly proclaiming their rightful place in taking these profits for you and you only based on, of all things, career expectations and you claim the west is not worthy of the improvements because of our expectations. Unfortunately for you your fellow pilots also claim that career expectations are a nullified point because they are at best really not based on any fact but more inline with fantasy. So which is it? Do career expectation play a part or do they not? You cannot have it both ways. If you claim you are rightful owners of the growth because of your perceived career expectations then you must then you must accept arguments shooting holes in your expectations claim. And if you agree with your fellow pilots that these expectations are fantasy then how can you claim to be the sole owners of any of the aforementioned benefits? Hmmm... What a terrible twist! It's likely your parents told you many times the share. Well You should have listened to them... Now we find ourselves in one heck of a mess...

Gender based opinion, many words and no point.

 

[Tiger 1050]

I see. That justifies super "seniority" for the west exactly how then? We return to the old Nic axe, and what it's brought us.

Read the rest of the post East! You're better than that...

 

[EastUS]

Read the rest of the post East! You're better than that...

I'll take that as some form of "answer" then...since none can truly be offered out west for the seniority issue at hand, nor by Alpo in any capacity.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Gender based opinion, many words and no point.

Wow! Great response. A wonderfully standard post from Nos. Maybe you could dig up some sort of dirt on AWA to further you cause! Oh wait you've already done that ad nauseam. Tell ya what skippy I'll dumb down my next post if you can come up with a decent response refuting my statements. It may help your reading comprehension if you read it more than once too!!!

 

[Tiger 1050]

I'll take that as some form of "answer" then...since none can truly be offered out west for the seniority issue at hand, nor by Alpo in any capacity.

Too lazy to read the whole post? Well that's actually par for the course with USAPA folk.

 

[nostradamus]

Wow! Great response. A wonderfully standard post from Nos. Maybe you could dig up some sort of dirt on AWA to further you cause! Oh wait you've already done that ad nauseam. Tell ya what skippy I'll dumb down my next post if you can come up with a decent response refuting my statements. It may help your reading comprehension if you read it more than once too!!!

Yes dear.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Congrats....that qualifies as perhaps the most utterly absurd thing I've yet seen posted here.

Hey! Its US Aviation. The most derided and neanderthal web board for this industry. We all come here to jerk our knees and say stupid stuff! Welcome! I do my serious posting at other sites. This is for fun.

 

[EastUS]

Too lazy to read the whole post? Well that's actually par for the course with USAPA folk.

I actually did read the "whole post", as it always seems reasonable to do so prior to responding. We're on the same page regarding only "career expectations", but the rest of it's little more than essentially a soft-sell for an unwarranted seniority boost. I found no actual justification for anyone jumping years ahead of another in it though. I did notice that you've no answer for the thought that a "new company" offers zero logical basis for accelerated "seniority" for the west folks....which is definately "par for the course". That the morally and logically indefensible nature of your position results in some apparent irritation via your resulting statement above is hardly my doing.

 

[EastUS]

I do my serious posting at other sites. This is for fun.

Said other sites being?.......? Just curious.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I find it interesting that our emotions play such a large part in how we perceive the world around us considering we are by our nature a more logically/scientifically minded bunch...

Yep you're right about that. However in this instance I think ones emotions are determined by opposite sides. really too bad in a way.

Anyway I suppose it doesn't matter much. Most of the darts we throw back and forth are, as EastUS put it once, just venting. I am curious though concerning the demographics of USAPA supporters. Is it more F/O's? Or is it Capt's? Also is it more popular in the north? Or does it share the same level of support from the south as well? I ask because the more East pilots I meet (and most have been very cordial and pleasant to speak with) the more I am finding that it is mostly supported by F/O's (understandable) and most of the support comes from the north. I am now inclined to believe this more than in the past due to the fact that it seems CLT is not happy with the idea of USAPA. And let's face it the F/O's have far more to gain from their delusions of DOH. With or without restrictions.

Hmm demographics. USAPA has a broad range of support from all levels of the seniority list. I just wouldn't characterize all the east F/O's as delusional though.

What I don't understand is how USAPA or at least their supporters on this board can toss aside the notion that they will in fact be sued? If there is one change to the Nicolau whether through CBA negotiations or otherwise you have to know that USAPA will be served with a DFR suit. This is not a threat from me per se but something that will happen in this never ending battle between the east and west.

Lawsuits are a fact of life. Already planned for. Have a few questions. In your opinion, if the 2 NC's finally get to sit down. Hammer out a contract, and if said contract is put out to vote, and defeated, what would happen next? ALPA National has basically closed section 22 seniority. So we go back and renegotiate, what then? Does that reopen section 22 also? Or......if the NC's decide to alter the NIC award to get the contract a reasonable chance of passing, does that open up a DFR from both sides? Interesting dilemma isn't it? So, if USAPA takes over later this spring, what happens to section 22 then? Does it mean it's already closed? I don't think so. USAPA is and always will be free to negotiate a contract that meets its Constitution and ByLaws. How does that support a successful DFR? Furthermore, if the west chooses to not participate by withholding dues, just like ALPA has done, your vote will get tossed for being in bad standing.

No matter the financial support from the membership, which will be from east pilots only, or lines of credit available it will prove to be very costly to say the least. This would be more than difficult for any new entity in the early stages of its existence. As far as not paying dues... Well let's just say that there are many creative ways to avoid paying them. So in the end you'll have a broken down union drowning in debt with no real future to provide the representation they promise.

Ways? Debt? Misguided statements. How much do you think of our 1.95% dues money is returned to USAirways pilots? All things considered, not much!! Luckily USAPA doesn't have to support a bloated National cost structure. So your statement drowning in debt does not mean very much. Which is fear mongering at best. Don't want to participate? Don't pay your dues. Simple.

Is this doom and gloom. Maybe. Is this playing the fear card to further my own agenda? For the most part yes. But nonetheless it is difficult to refute this potential outcome. Whether or not you agree the west is just as capable as the east in playing the extortion game. And as you know this "game" does not lend itself to the promotion of a good contract. But I can live with that...

As for a new contract, hindsight is 20/20. The worst mistake on both MEC's part was to keep us on LOA93. For us that is fine for previous stated reasons. But ALPA dropped the ball by not demanding parity. So where do you think management will start the negotiations from? That's right LOA93. Instead of setting the bar higher from the get go with the Transition Agreement. Management will start at the lower bar once again and proffer second class proposals. BTW. Heard that our esteemed ALPA National advisor's highly suggested lowering the bar from the get go. Seems we wanted to ask for $180-190 for group 2 and the Herndon advisor's lowered the ask for us. Thanks ALPA. You really have our best interests at heart don't you?

 

[Tiger 1050]

Yep you're right about that. However in this instance I think ones emotions are determined by opposite sides. really too bad in a way.

Yes it is. USAPA is the result of these emotions in my opinion.

Hmm demographics. USAPA has a broad range of support from all levels of the seniority list. I just wouldn't characterize all the east F/O's as delusional though.

Fair enough. But it is true the F/O's have by far the most to gain...

Lawsuits are a fact of life. Already planned for. Have a few questions. In your opinion, if the 2 NC's finally get to sit down. Hammer out a contract, and if said contract is put out to vote, and defeated, what would happen next? ALPA National has basically closed section 22 seniority. So we go back and renegotiate, what then? Does that reopen section 22 also? Or......if the NC's decide to alter the NIC award to get the contract a reasonable chance of passing, does that open up a DFR from both sides? Interesting dilemma isn't it? So, if USAPA takes over later this spring, what happens to section 22 then? Does it mean it's already closed? I don't think so. USAPA is and always will be free to negotiate a contract that meets its Constitution and ByLaws. How does that support a successful DFR? Furthermore, if the west chooses to not participate by withholding dues, just like ALPA has done, your vote will get tossed for being in bad standing.

An effective DFR does not require a successful outcome with an entity as small as USAPA.

Ways? Debt? Misguided statements. How much do you think of our 1.95% dues money is returned to USAirways pilots? All things considered, not much!! Luckily USAPA doesn't have to support a bloated National cost structure. So your statement drowning in debt does not mean very much. Which is fear mongering at best. Don't want to participate? Don't pay your dues. Simple.

Well I do not believe for one minute that USAPA's busy work is going to be done by pilots for free. So you are going to spend more money than you seem to believe. As a matter of fact you can budget all you want but like everything in life it usually costs more in the end, whether directly or indirectly.

As for a new contract, hindsight is 20/20. The worst mistake on both MEC's part was to keep us on LOA93. For us that is fine for previous stated reasons. But ALPA dropped the ball by not demanding parity. So where do you think management will start the negotiations from? That's right LOA93. Instead of setting the bar higher from the get go with the Transition Agreement. Management will start at the lower bar once again and proffer second class proposals. BTW. Heard that our esteemed ALPA National advisor's highly suggested lowering the bar from the get go. Seems we wanted to ask for $180-190 for group 2 and the Herndon advisor's lowered the ask for us. Thanks ALPA. You really have our best interests at heart don't you?

I had heard the same... Unfortunate indeed.

btw hows the DJ and maternal support doing?