AMFA/teamsters Senoirity Integration

[swamt]

Yes it was fair.

AirTran mechs received huge wage and benefit increases.
SWA mechs received a 4 year increase in seniority.

Both sides found it fair and both sides voted it in by about 85%.

Who made you the arbiter of what is fair to us?

It seems all the outsiders that don't know all the facts, all seem to think our integration with AT was not fair. If they are not here then they will never understand the reasons why every group here (except for one) recieved some kind of boost in seniority, and a lot of them were decided by a third party arbitrator. So short and sweet, yes, it was fair for both sides, and as you stated it was voted on by both sides and overwhelmingly passed by over 85% of both sides. At least the AT guys were able to nego with us, as well as have a vote. Can't say this for the other unions doing integrations now and in the near future.

 

[Topcat187]

So, am I missing something here? How is it fair to give AMFA represented Southwest employees four extra years to their seniority. What is wrong with taking AA 's seniority list and the US seniority list, but them side by side and start merging. If every US employee has more time, so be it. If every AA employee has more time, fine. Just use DOC and be done with it. Obviously it will put some hardship on a few, but you cannot please everyone. Am I being to simplistic here?

This is what they agreed on during negotiations. The Air Tran guys got huge pay raises out of the deal, and apparantly were ok with the 4 years because they accepted it. It was a pretty uniqe situation because of the pay increase, and with AA and US at the bottom of the industry, it will be a whole different scenario (most likely everyone will keep their seniority as it is).

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

No charts or links attached.

1AA

I believe the charts ref. came from the amfa-aa web site under documents.

Majority rules trouble with the Teamsters.

When I got this he sent a screen shot and when I tried to copy the site said this site does not allow so I went looking for it myself.

AMFA at AA in 2013​

 

[AANOTOK]

This is what they agreed on during negotiations. The Air Tran guys got huge pay raises out of the deal, and apparantly were ok with the 4 years because they accepted it. It was a pretty uniqe situation because of the pay increase, and with AA and US at the bottom of the industry, it will be a whole different scenario (most likely everyone will keep their seniority as it is).

I will be the first to admit I know nothing about the situation other than what I read. I will also add that if it passed by 85%, then most are comfortable with it.

Now, just to play devils advocate here, I guess you could say that the AT employees were bought off. My question would be, did these raises and benefit gains bring the AT employees up to par with the SW employees, or push them past them. I would think buyouts/mergers would put all on par regardless. So basically, SW was awarded fours seniority just so the AT employees could attain the same pay/benefits as their merged brothers and sisters from SW currently enjoy. OK!

Again, not looking for smarta** or hateful replies here, just trying to understand.
Thanks, way in advance

 

[swamt]

I will be the first to admit I know nothing about the situation other than what I read. I will also add that if it passed by 85%, then most are comfortable with it.

Now, just to play devils advocate here, I guess you could say that the AT employees were bought off. My question would be, did these raises and benefit gains bring the AT employees up to par with the SW employees, or push them past them. I would think buyouts/mergers would put all on par regardless. So basically, SW was awarded fours seniority just so the AT employees could attain the same pay/benefits as their merged brothers and sisters from SW currently enjoy. OK!

Again, not looking for smarta** or hateful replies here, just trying to understand.
Thanks, way in advance

Pretty
much brought them on par. However with that said, some mechs got anywhere from 5 to 18 bucks per hour raise depending if they were a/c mechs or GSE. They would have received their raises and bonus steps sooner than they did, but the teamsters wanted to play games and try to go for the moon and this really pissed off the company, so they started moving the dates further ahead and even take away certain pay date advances the longer the teamsters were playing hard ball.

 

[john john]

The IAM always uses dovetail by date of classification.

http://www.iam141.mobi/docs/Javits.pdf
To: All UAL/Continental Employees Represented by the IAM

From: Joshua M. Javits, Neutral

I was
appointed as a Neutral in this matter to assist the parties in the seniority integration
process resulting from the merger between United and Continental Airlines.

I intend to engage in a fact-finding or mediation effort with representatives of
the IAM-represented employee groups of both carriers that is scheduled to take place in Washington, D.C. on March 20-22, 2013.

 

[700UW]

I will issue a Report and Recommendations to the IAM International, together with proposed seniority lists that I believe are consistent with IAM policy by April 10, 2013.

 

[Bob Owens]

You see the teamsters wanted to do anything they could in order to hurt or "get back" at the AMFA/SWA guys for firing them in e record 2 week card drive. This is also the main reason the teamsters hate AMFA with such a passion, and the same goes with the IAM for what happened at NWA and UAL, and soon the TWU will hate AMFA just as much when they get fired from AA and AMFA moves in there.

TWU already hates AMFA. Always did ,even when the goal of AMFA wasn't to start a new union, just give mechanics more of a voice in the TWU. The sad thing is these Unions will continue to love these companies that rape their members and save their anger and venom for a rival union. Whats even sadder is that many mechanics still look at what happened at NWA as a huge failure of one particular union and not what it really was, a huge betrayal of Unionism by the leaders of some of the largest Unions in the country. They allied themselves with corporate America to try and punish workers who dared to say NO to a company and try a Union they did not approve of. Had they gone non-union they would not have been as vicious.

 

[swamt]

TWU already hates AMFA. Always did ,even when the goal of AMFA wasn't to start a new union, just give mechanics more of a voice in the TWU. The sad thing is these Unions will continue to love these companies that rape their members and save their anger and venom for a rival union. Whats even sadder is that many mechanics still look at what happened at NWA as a huge failure of one particular union and not what it really was, a huge betrayal of Unionism by the leaders of some of the largest Unions in the country. They allied themselves with corporate America to try and punish workers who dared to say NO to a company and try a Union they did not approve of. Had they gone non-union they would not have been as vicious.

I agree with you. I will not say AMFA done a perfect job at NWA. MPO is that AMFA waited way too long to start the strike. But, at least AMFA had the ball$ to fight such ridiculous management at NWA, in stead of laying down and "agreeing" to all the concessions, rifs, lay-offs, relocations of employees and families, not to mention all the bennies they all agreed to cut. Now all this came after a previous concessions agreement by the TWU and AA in 2003. Over at US the IAM layed down on their members too. The IAM also layed down and "agreed" to concessions at UAL. Good god has any union in the last 20 years put up a fight except for AMFA?? All of us are making what we are making directly due to the hard work, and the fight that AMFA put up FOR THE INDUSTRY over at NWA---simple fact gentlemen... No other mechanics union had the nads to stand up and fight like the brother and sisters did at NWA with AMFA--period.

 

[700UW]

At UA and US both were in chapter 11, the law forces to negotiate concessions or face an abrogation and imposition of concessions.

Someone at AMFA had to know what NW was doing, they didnt do it overnight, and amfa didnt work safe, not gather support from any other union on the property, even their sister union the PFAA went to work.

And AMFA putting out a letter telling NW to take more from the other unionized workers instead of themselves really didnt help their cause.

 

[lineguy43]

I agree with you. I will not say AMFA done a perfect job at NWA. MPO is that AMFA waited way too long to start the strike. But, at least AMFA had the ball$ to fight such ridiculous management at NWA, in stead of laying down and "agreeing" to all the concessions, rifs, lay-offs, relocations of employees and families, not to mention all the bennies they all agreed to cut. Now all this came after a previous concessions agreement by the TWU and AA in 2003. Over at US the IAM layed down on their members too. The IAM also layed down and "agreed" to concessions at UAL. Good god has any union in the last 20 years put up a fight except for AMFA?? All of us are making what we are making directly due to the hard work, and the fight that AMFA put up FOR THE INDUSTRY over at NWA---simple fact gentlemen... No other mechanics union had the nads to stand up and fight like the brother and sisters did at NWA with AMFA--period.

If I have to come down on AMFA for anything it would be that in my opinion we should have stayed on the clock and not went out on an official strike..AMFA had always been an advocate of the flight attendant type of strike which is called CHAOS. (Create Havoc around our system). In other words stay working and impose self help by a work slowdown. Had AMFA not chose to do a traditional strike and chose the CHAOS route instead I believe that would have made a real difference in the outcome.. First NW had all those SCABS trained and paying their room and board figuring they would demand concessions so bad that it would guarantee AMFA would strike which is what did happen. However, If we had stayed on the clock I believe NW would have been forced to lock us out. Then we ALL would have been eligible for unemployment benefits and might have kept the weaker members from crossing the picket line.

 

[700UW]

You have to remember even if you stayed on the property NW could have imposed a new CBA per the RLA and you would either work under those conditions or strike.

 

[lineguy43]

You have to remember even if you stayed on the property NW could have imposed a new CBA per the RLA and you would either work under those conditions or strike.

Yes you are correct. However, I do believe NW had a grander plan for us and that was to get rid of us. I think they knew they were going to merge with DL in the future and we were not to be a part of it..JMHO..So in my eyes I believe they would have locked us out.

 

[Kev3188]

If I have to come down on AMFA for anything it would be that in my opinion we should have stayed on the clock and not went out on an official strike..AMFA had always been an advocate of the flight attendant type of strike which is called CHAOS. (Create Havoc around our system). In other words stay working and impose self help by a work slowdown. Had AMFA not chose to do a traditional strike and chose the CHAOS route instead I believe that would have made a real difference in the outcome.. First NW had all those SCABS trained and paying their room and board figuring they would demand concessions so bad that it would guarantee AMFA would strike which is what did happen. However, If we had stayed on the clock I believe NW would have been forced to lock us out. Then we ALL would have been eligible for unemployment benefits and might have kept the weaker members from crossing the picket line.

I've often wondered about how that might've gone. I know AMFA wanted to show the value of the AMT group, and tried to do that by taking the high road (my term) for quite awhile. I think I told you about the engine change they had to fight to do in my station just a week-ish prior to the strike. Maybe CHAOS would've been better, though I don't think NWA cared anymore. maybe that's what AMFA ultimately underestimated? You can't negotiate with someone who wants to see you extinguished...

You have to remember even if you stayed on the property NW could have imposed a new CBA per the RLA and you would either work under those conditions or strike.

Which they did a few months later anyway...

 

[Bob Owens]

Yes you are correct. However, I do believe NW had a grander plan for us and that was to get rid of us. I think they knew they were going to merge with DL in the future and we were not to be a part of it..JMHO..So in my eyes I believe they would have locked us out.

I agree, and the window to do that again has closed. It was obvious that NWA had only one objective-Bust AMFA at any cost. It took NWA 18 months to round up just over 1000 scabs at a time where pretty much every carrier except WN had laid off thousands of mechanics. They cut their operations by 20% and limped along till Delta took over. There was a glut of A&Ps out there and NWA still had a hard time, now it takes AA at least 5 months to get just 30 mechanics when they needed 60. If they cant get 60 what makes people think they could get the thousands they would need to continue to operate? NWA was a battle, a Pearl Harbor, or an Alamo for our profession, yes that battle was lost but the conditions that lead to that loss aren't the same today as they were then. Whats really sad is that the defeat of AMFA at NWA was supported by other labor organizations who failed to follow what they preach. Their hatred for AMFA didn't just set back Aircraft Mechanics, it set back the labor movement as a whole. It showed how Unions were willing to turn on each other and even help management screw other workers. Management saw how weak we had become and it emboldened them to take even more. Then they wonder why after spending millions, after putting all their efforts into changing laws to make it easier to organize their drives fail one after another. It wasn't just management that saw how weak unions had become, workers saw it as well, if not for the Union security clause how many people at US or AA would continue to voluntarily pay dues to earn less than their non-union peers? Yes AMFA lost the battle at NWA, but the IAM, TWU, IBT, ALPA and AFA failed the rest of us by not doing anything to stop it.