April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[luvthe9]

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2013/04/five-us-airways-executives-receive-8-million-in-stock-grants.html/ How much did you guys get, our manangement loves guys like traitor the weaker the better.

 

[luvthe9]

Pilots Union Update

The Delta Pilots Association is within 100 signature cards of a certification vote! This is significant when you think about the United Pilots being the only major airline left in ALPA. read more
Is it fair for the United Pilots to be left holding the bag and paying for ALPA's failure in the TWA lawsuit? It looks like the damages trial is set to take place later this year and the result is almost certain to be in the hundreds of millions of dollars which ALPA cannot pay without assessing its members.
Subsidizing union representation for the ALPA regional pilots just took on a completely different meaning with the exodus of the Delta Pilots. The Delta pilots contribute $38 million dollars each year to ALPA: how does ALPA replace this kind of money?
If you thought ALPA's legislative agenda was ineffective before, just wait until the Delta Pilots (DPA) team up with the American Pilots (APA) and join CAPA.
It's time to ensure that the United Pilots will have responsible, accountable union representation that protects the United Pilots. It's time we get serious about protecting the Major Airline Pilots' career and supporting a sustained legislative agenda that does just that.
We have a long way to go and a lot of work to do to collect 6,300 signature cards. Visit us at www.unitedpilotsunion.org and see how you can help.
The United Pilots Union

UAL is leaving ALPA? Really?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Still a dirty trick on your part......it would have passed anyway IMHO! You just showed your true colors, traitor.

Your kind of BS is what causes a disfunctional union....that's the problem I have with you.
breeze

You keep bragging that the recall attempt in CLT guaranteed a vote on the MOU. But that was not part of the plan. The real purpose was the actual recall which failed miserably.

It's reconstructionist history to chest-thump like that when the reality is that the "guaranteed vote on the MOU" was a matter of lucky timing, and nothing more.

But, then again, rewriting history is one of Chip's fortes, and you, as his minion sitting at his feet, have learned quickly to imitate the master.

 

[nycbusdriver]

UAL is leaving ALPA? Really?

Once Delta gets their remaining 100 cards and they kick ALPA into the gutter, UAL will not be far behind.

 

[Graceson]

Typical; you ignore my questions but want me to answer yours? My questions were/are:
1) Where is the number one west pilot on the NIC and where would he be on a DOH scheme?
2) Do you think a furloughed pilot at the time of the merger should "magically" become senior to a line-holding captain post SLI?

I played no part in how the NIC list came to be ordered and, like you, can do nothing to change the facts:
1) It was the result of a mutually-agreed upon binding arbitration process
2) It was accepted by the Company per the Transition Agreement as being the completed SLI for all LCC pilots
3) That federal statutes require any bargaining agent to abide by their duty to fairly represent all constituents and to abide by the terms of all contracts in force, including those that were inherited
4) That the west pilots have no control over what USAPA and Management do in JCBA negotiations and cannot stop them without a federal injunction from either fulfilling their lawful duties or abdicating them
5) No pilot can take any spot on any seniority list, higher or lower, by any personal volitional act
6) That Wake, Tashima, Graber, Bybee, and Silver have all issued warning statements to USAPA for any attempt to discard the results of binding arbitration in order to advance east pilots at the harm of west pilots.

All airlines go through industry troughs and swells. Good years and bad years.

Not unique to the airline industry, many businesses will layoff employees as its industry sector slides into its own cyclic trough.

Taking it further, there are individual companies that have their separate cyclic swings within their own industry, contrary to other like kind corporations.

Should we fairly base SLI on cyclic economic behavior? The rule would be, all mergers at the top of the swell will consider all employee LOS in an integration process. Conversely, all mergers in an economic trough will be discriminately ignore LOS, and affected employees shall be considered newely employed at the mered airline.

Because the west operation is in one such trough due to regional competitive challenges, should their employees be subjected to the same standard --all fourloughees be considered new hires.

By luck or design, any employee who has not resigned should not be subjected to the arbitrary standard of men and women bobbing on ocean waves. A standard that dictates, say - - "I'll close my eyes, when I drop my handkerchief, all those at the crest of the wave will be senior to those in the trough.

By any example the method does not fit the definition of a true standard. A more consistant measure would be LOS. Such a standard neutralizes the effect of arbitrary cyclic or life-cycle corporate behavior. Thereafter, all minor exceptions would be addressed with appropriate fences and restrictions.

 

[cleardirect]

Pilots Union Update

The Delta Pilots Association is within 100 signature cards of a certification vote! This is significant when you think about the United Pilots being the only major airline left in ALPA. read more
Is it fair for the United Pilots to be left holding the bag and paying for ALPA's failure in the TWA lawsuit? It looks like the damages trial is set to take place later this year and the result is almost certain to be in the hundreds of millions of dollars which ALPA cannot pay without assessing its members.
Subsidizing union representation for the ALPA regional pilots just took on a completely different meaning with the exodus of the Delta Pilots. The Delta pilots contribute $38 million dollars each year to ALPA: how does ALPA replace this kind of money?
If you thought ALPA's legislative agenda was ineffective before, just wait until the Delta Pilots (DPA) team up with the American Pilots (APA) and join CAPA.
It's time to ensure that the United Pilots will have responsible, accountable union representation that protects the United Pilots. It's time we get serious about protecting the Major Airline Pilots' career and supporting a sustained legislative agenda that does just that.
We have a long way to go and a lot of work to do to collect 6,300 signature cards. Visit us at www.unitedpilotsunion.org and see how you can help.
The United Pilots Union

After a year DAL still does not have enough cards. Cards don't equate to votes. UAL needs 6300 cards and votes but you all think it is a done deal.

Your hate for ALPA blinds you. You all talk about unionisum and how great you guys are. Yet rejoice at the possible destruction of a union.

I think the entire industry will rejoice when usapa closes the door.

 

[Black Swan]

After a year DAL still does not have enough cards. Cards don't equate to votes. UAL needs 6300 cards and votes but you all think it is a done deal.

Your hate for ALPA blinds you. You all talk about unionisum and how great you guys are. Yet rejoice at the possible destruction of a union.

I think the entire industry will rejoice when usapa closes the door.

You have done an incredible amount of damage to the industry with the Nic. That took Airways pilots out of ALPA. Your ALPA removal rests squarely on your and Praters' shoulders.

 

[cleardirect]

All airlines go through industry troughs and swells. Good years and bad years.

Not unique to the airline industry, many businesses will layoff employees as its industry sector slides into its own cyclic trough.

Taking it further, there are individual companies that have their separate cyclic swings within their own industry, contrary to other like kind corporations.

Should we fairly base SLI on cyclic economic behavior? The rule would be, all mergers at the top of the swell will consider all employee LOS in an integration process. Conversely, all mergers in an economic trough will be discriminately ignore LOS, and affected employees shall be considered newely employed at the mered airline.

Because the west operation is in one such trough due to regional competitive challenges, should their employees be subjected to the same standard --all fourloughees be considered new hires.

By luck or design, any employee who has not resigned should not be subjected to the arbitrary standard of men and women bobbing on ocean waves. A standard that dictates, say - - "I'll close my eyes, when I drop my handkerchief, all those at the crest of the wave will be senior to those in the trough.

By any example the method does not fit the definition of a true standard. A more consistant measure would be LOS. Such a standard neutralizes the effect of arbitrary cyclic or life-cycle corporate behavior. Thereafter, all minor exceptions would be addressed with appropriate fences and restrictions.

Well you just run out and start to petition congress to change the new law and demand LOS. The go to ALPA, and CAPA and get them to agree to your opinion.

You can hope and dream all day but that is not the history or reality of airline pilot mergers.

Even A/M way back when used the standard of fair and equitable not LOS. What is your objection to fair and equitable? If LOS is fair and equitable it will be used. In our case LOS was not.

I know you think Nicolau got it wrong. Whatever. We used a neutral third party. How would you decide what is fair and equitable? Rock, paper, scissors? The larger group gets what they want? Would that always be LOS?

So run out and change the world to how you want it to work. But the reality and history do not match your opinion.

The Nicolau was done fair and equitable. The American merger will be done fair and equitable. It will not be LOS either.

 

[cleardirect]

You have done an incredible amount of damage to the industry with the Nic. That took Airways pilots out of ALPA. Your ALPA removal rests squarely on your and Praters' shoulders.

Wow. You can not even accept the responsibility for your actions. Besides you easties all told us it was not about Nicolau but all the other evil things ALPA did. So what is it? Nicolau or all the other things?

At least accept the responsibility for take airways out of ALPA. The west had nothing to do with it.

It was east the thought up and created usapa. East that voted for usapa and east that run usapa.

The west had nothing to do with it. The west is simply trying to implement what the east agreed to. Live up to your word.

 

[Black Swan]

Once Delta gets their remaining 100 cards and they kick ALPA into the gutter, UAL will not be far behind.

I agree. Who wants to have to pay for another ALPA disaster. They are all going to bail. The regionals will start next.

 

[CaptChill]

I agree. Who wants to have to pay for another ALPA disaster. They are all going to bail. The regionals will start next.

I pray for that... finally ALPA will get what they so richly deserve!

 

[Black Swan]

Wow. You can not even accept the responsibility for your actions. Besides you easties all told us it was not about Nicolau but all the other evil things ALPA did. So what is it? Nicolau or all the other things?

At least accept the responsibility for take airways out of ALPA. The west had nothing to do with it.

It was east the thought up and created usapa. East that voted for usapa and east that run usapa.

The west had nothing to do with it. The west is simply trying to implement what the east agreed to. Live up to your word.

Options. They are great to have. When Nicolau botched the deal and ALPA did not correct the problem, the East pilots had an option. The first was Wye River. Nothing could be fixed there. The West had an option: compromise or face the next East option- leave ALPA.
You had your option, you gambled, you lost. It was all legal. You don't understand labor law, neither does your legal team. Not my problem anymore. Face the consequences. Your Integrity mantra is your stupid way of trying to face the fact you had absolutely no business gaming RLA provisions. You still don't get it and neither does Harper. You are getting your lunch eaten because of it.
You are totally in over your head with labor law.

 

[Graceson]

UAL Pre Hearing Statement April 11, 2013

Excerpt

"It is not an overstatement to say that the evolution of Merger Policy including, United Air Lines Merger Committee most importantly, the changes to it following George Nicolau’s Award in the America West-US Airways case, is central to the resolution of this case. That Award, while eminently correct based on the facts in that case and the terms of Merger Policy then in effect (and now changed), created an environment within ALPA that was intolerable, and ultimately highly destructive for the union. As a consequence, ALPA amended Merger Policy in 2009, and it is that 2009 Policy that controls this case. It is likewise that Policy, which requires Arbitration Boards to construct ISLs taking account of three specific factors – status and category, longevity and career expectations –that guides the formation of the UAL Committee’s proposal in this case."

Wait a minute, this from UAL pilots Steve Gillen pilot "nuetral" for US Airways AWA debacle and former VP ALPA Paul Rice, from the Rice Committee, aka everything is fine US Airways pilots deal with it.

The only legal motions in effect now should be those initiatives by the east and west class for harm and distress for the ALPA hypocrisies of standard.

 

[cleardirect]

I agree. Who wants to have to pay for another ALPA disaster. They are all going to bail. The regionals will start next.

What was ALPAs disaster for TWA? Not going to arbitration and allowing a union to impose a seniority list on their members.

Does that sound familiar? Usapa after arbitration ignores that arbitration and is trying to impose a seniority list on the minority.

Why do you think the outcome will be different. ALPA lost a DFR for not allowing arbitration. Usapa wil lose for ignoring arbitration.

 

[Beancounter]

What was ALPAs disaster for TWA? Not going to arbitration and allowing a union to impose a seniority list on their members.

Does that sound familiar? Usapa after arbitration ignores that arbitration and is trying to impose a seniority list on the minority.

Why do you think the outcome will be different. ALPA lost a DFR for not allowing arbitration. Usapa wil lose for ignoring arbitration.

Yes, his hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Bean