April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Beancounter]

Well you just run out and start to petition congress to change the new law and demand LOS. The go to ALPA, and CAPA and get them to agree to your opinion.

You can hope and dream all day but that is not the history or reality of airline pilot mergers.

Even A/M way back when used the standard of fair and equitable not LOS. What is your objection to fair and equitable? If LOS is fair and equitable it will be used. In our case LOS was not.

I know you think Nicolau got it wrong. Whatever. We used a neutral third party. How would you decide what is fair and equitable? Rock, paper, scissors? The larger group gets what they want? Would that always be LOS?

So run out and change the world to how you want it to work. But the reality and history do not match your opinion.

The Nicolau was done fair and equitable. The American merger will be done fair and equitable. It will not be LOS either.

Wow, pretty much spot on post, and you got 5 negatives. The natives are restless. I find it interesting that off this board I'm finding more and more east pilots that while they don't think it will be the Nic, they think it will be very close. No DOH, not even LOS.

Bean

 

[fatherabraham]

Wow, pretty much spot on post, and you got 5 negatives. The natives are restless. I find it interesting that off this board I'm finding more and more east pilots that while they don't think it will be the Nic, they think it will be very close. No DOH, not even LOS.

Bean

Bean,

No, the Wow belongs to you for even getting past CD's first 2 sentences w/o seeing the mistakes.
They've been shown too many times to repeat.
If the negatives were unlimited he would see many many more.

FA

 

[Graceson]

Well you just run out and start to petition congress to change the new law and demand LOS. The go to ALPA, and CAPA and get them to agree to your opinion.

You can hope and dream all day but that is not the history or reality of airline pilot mergers.

Even A/M way back when used the standard of fair and equitable not LOS. What is your objection to fair and equitable? If LOS is fair and equitable it will be used. In our case LOS was not.

I know you think Nicolau got it wrong. Whatever. We used a neutral third party. How would you decide what is fair and equitable? Rock, paper, scissors? The larger group gets what they want? Would that always be LOS?

So run out and change the world to how you want it to work. But the reality and history do not match your opinion.

The Nicolau was done fair and equitable. The American merger will be done fair and equitable. It will not be LOS either.

Even the gov't helped create a "first hire" pool after the deregulation experiment was implemented. It was only a small effort, but it did recognize preexisting service. And now government again steps in when parties can't find common standard (MB).

And isn't your point about 'reality and history' the very reason we're seeing change and intervention by both gov't appointed administrators and the shifting sands of collective labor organizations, trying to reinvent themselves. The past has has been a consistent exercise of hypocrisy, frustration and failure.

In a sucessful resolution, no one should be happy. It should not be the NIC. It should not be strict DOH. More appropriately, length of service methodology with grandfathering of class and catagory. No capt is bumped by any f/o regardless of LOS. No furloughee bumps an active pilot in the event of future furloughs. But all recalls occur using the LOS standard.

LOS directly reflects age and therefore addresses reasonable standards and the uniform reward as a consequence of attrition. High LOS has short term relevance but does recognize years of contribution. Short LOS recognizes opportunity with the potential of even greater reward.

But grandfathering is imperative when transitioning to a newer, more consistent standard.

When all complain, then we're making progress.

 

[traderjake]

How much did you guys get, our manangement loves guys like traitor the weaker the better.

We got a 33% payraise and parity in 3 years.

Correction, I'll get parity, you'll be gone.

Five additional years of LOA93 under USAPA.

Our management loves guys like luvthe9, the dumber the better.

 

[cleardirect]

Even the gov't helped create a "first hire" pool after the deregulation experiment was implemented. It was only a small effort, but it did recognize preexisting service. And now government again steps in when parties can't find common standard (MB).

And isn't your point about 'reality and history' the very reason we're seeing change and intervention by both gov't appointed administrators and the shifting sands of collective labor organizations, trying to reinvent themselves. The past has has been a consistent exercise of hypocrisy, frustration and failure.

In a sucessful resolution, no one should be happy. It should not be the NIC. It should not be strict DOH. More appropriately, length of service methodology with grandfathering of class and catagory. No capt is bumped by any f/o regardless of LOS. No furloughee bumps an active pilot in the event of future furloughs. But all recalls occur using the LOS standard.

LOS directly reflects age and therefore addresses reasonable standards and the uniform reward as a consequence of attrition. High LOS has short term relevance but does recognize years of contribution. Short LOS recognizes opportunity with the potential of even greater reward.

But grandfathering is imperative when transitioning to a newer, more consistent standard.

When all complain, then we're making progress.

I guess that is the difference between you and me.

You think everyone should be unhappy.

I think everyone should be happy or at least at least accept the result. That should be the goal not to piss everyone off.

Now if the east had be willing to compromise from DOH/LOS we could have had acceptance.

Instead you still demand LOS and unhappy pilots.

If you easties could think beyond your own greed and single minded method we would all be better off. Instead you are going to have the Nicolau shoved up your six and cost the entire pilot group.

If you continue to demand LOS in the next merger you are going to be unhappy again.

Question. Do you think UAL/CAL will be LOS?

 

[traderjake]

If you continue to demand LOS in the next merger you are going to be unhappy again.

Rumor has it that going into negotiations USAPA's position will be LOS with fences.

 

[traderjake]

dupe

 

[prechilill]

Rumor has it that going into negotiations USAPA's position will be LOS with fences.

Yet they want a DOH cram down with the west. What a bunch of punks. No surprised. Bunch of low-life people in the east ranks, no question about it. Situational ethics at its best.

 

[Graceson]

Question. Do you think UAL/CAL will be LOS?

I asses probabilities in the market by considering measurable fundamentals and technicals absent emotion. I then consider sentiment (emotion) in the equation as how it might influence the strength or weakness of those probabilities.

Only a fool would define the exact balance of the eqation at UAL/CAL when the formula for reason is based so totally on sentiment (emotion) withot first establishing a measurable standard.

No standard for an SLI can be perfect, but all standards can be backtested to prove or dismiss reasonable efficacy. Even restrictions and conditions can be backtested to validate some STANDARDS rather than letting sentiment dominate the process in the absense of order.

I do agree with your preferred point of view on "unhappy." You are making progress if you are now seeing your glass half full, rather than half empty. I wii follow your lead. A good resolution is when everyone is happy... though, you do understand that you can only have your glass HALF full.

 

[luvthe9]

We got a 33% payraise and parity in 3 years.

Yes three more years thanks to you and your pants wetter group, should have been immediate........but these guys thank you..
UPDATED, REVISED to add CFO Derek Kerr and to correct title for Robert Isom:
On Wednesday, US Airways chairman and CEO Doug Parker and five other top executives received stock awards (restricted stock units) valued at $8,867,981 based on Wednesday’s close, the executives reported Friday.
Here’s how it looks:
Executive Position Shares Value (based on awarded $15.78 close) W. Douglas Parker Chairman and CEO 170,722 $2,693,993 J. Scott Kirby President 119,518 $1,885,994 Robert D. Isom Jr. Chief operating officer 67,934 $1,071,999 Derek J. Kerr Chief financial officer 67,934 $1,071,999 Elise R. Eberwein Executive vice president 67,934 $1,071,999 Stephen L. Johnson Executive vice president 67,934 $1,071,999 Total 561,976 $8,867,98

 

[Beancounter]

Rumor has it that going into negotiations USAPA's position will be LOS with fences.

So are you saying they plan on negotiating from DOH to LOS? Now fencing the west into PHX would be an easy win DFR. Please tell me the grand plan isn't screw the west, don't worry about lawsuits, because USAPA will be gone?

Bean

 

[traderjake]

Yes three more years thanks to you and your pants wetter group, should have been immediate........but these guys thank you..

Are you calling 76% of USAirways pilots "pants wetters"?

Sorry you're not going to see parity.

You're starting to realize you threw away the last 5 years on LOA 93 with nothing to show for it.

I'd be p*ssed too if I was in your position.

 

[Beancounter]

Even the gov't helped create a "first hire" pool after the deregulation experiment was implemented. It was only a small effort, but it did recognize preexisting service. And now government again steps in when parties can't find common standard (MB).

And isn't your point about 'reality and history' the very reason we're seeing change and intervention by both gov't appointed administrators and the shifting sands of collective labor organizations, trying to reinvent themselves. The past has has been a consistent exercise of hypocrisy, frustration and failure.

In a sucessful resolution, no one should be happy. It should not be the NIC. It should not be strict DOH. More appropriately, length of service methodology with grandfathering of class and catagory. No capt is bumped by any f/o regardless of LOS. No furloughee bumps an active pilot in the event of future furloughs. But all recalls occur using the LOS standard.

LOS directly reflects age and therefore addresses reasonable standards and the uniform reward as a consequence of attrition. High LOS has short term relevance but does recognize years of contribution. Short LOS recognizes opportunity with the potential of even greater reward.

But grandfathering is imperative when transitioning to a newer, more consistent standard.

When all complain, then we're making progress.

I'm afraid your idea is far closer to DOH, than it is to the Nic, or for that matter relative position. Your way would be a windfall for pilots that were furloughed at the time of the merger.

Bean

 

[N924PS]

Yes three more years thanks to you and your pants wetter group, should have been immediate........but these guys thank you..
UPDATED, REVISED to add CFO Derek Kerr and to correct title for Robert Isom:
On Wednesday, US Airways chairman and CEO Doug Parker and five other top executives received stock awards (restricted stock units) valued at $8,867,981 based on Wednesday’s close, the executives reported Friday.
Here’s how it looks:
Executive Position Shares Value (based on awarded $15.78 close) W. Douglas Parker Chairman and CEO 170,722 $2,693,993 J. Scott Kirby President 119,518 $1,885,994 Robert D. Isom Jr. Chief operating officer 67,934 $1,071,999 Derek J. Kerr Chief financial officer 67,934 $1,071,999 Elise R. Eberwein Executive vice president 67,934 $1,071,999 Stephen L. Johnson Executive vice president 67,934 $1,071,999 Total 561,976 $8,867,98

And they thank YOU for allowing them such low pilot labor costs, to the tune of $1 Billion. They should send MK,JJ, and SB a bonus every year for helping them keep their labor costs so low by creating USAPA.

They deserve every penny of what you have allowed them to make on the backs of the entire pilot group. They are smarter than you are Luv. Always have been and always will.

 

[Beancounter]

And they thank YOU for allowing them such low pilot labor costs, to the tune of $1 Billion. They should send MK,JJ, and SB a bonus every year for helping them keep their labor costs so low by creating USAPA.

They deserve every penny of what you have allowed them to make on the backs of the entire pilot group. They are smarter than you are Luv. Always have been and always will.

Well, another spot on post. How many negative points is this one going to get?

Bean