AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

I know it's big $$....

Hardly.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Seems that despite your talk about discussing the MOU your mind is closed to anything that contradicts your pre-conceived notions...par for the course.

Jim

JIM you are the king of open mindness, god bless you! Our mentor KING JIM!

 

[Walmartgreeter]

EastUS1 said: "Understood and agreed with here..although I've yet kept some hair I guess it'll come out during road shows and subsequent correspondence. Perhaps it's still a bit early to be seriously fretting over this at all.

For myself? = I can't see any real daylight in other than a no vote with such massive concessions. "

Good for you, vote your heart. I am biased in that I already think I will be voting yes. Probably need the same education you do.

The important thing is our weak and disfuntional BPR was able to send it out for a vote. All I ever wanted. And our porfessionals tell us a loud and clear "No" from the membership has real meaning/leverage...although they support the deal.

I will defer to counsel, and we can cancel each other out, if you indeed vote NO.

Greeter

.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

A couple notes especially about scope, no one has even addressed,or mentioned what this merger (I believe will never happen) will keep, ,DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THE LANDSCAPE WILL REMAIN? Ie HELL NO!, ONE WORLD from STAR ALLIANCE divesting of slots, domestic and Int'l route authority? What then? When you write a blank check(MOU) that gives away your "SCOPE" your TOAST, bad DEAL EAST, and WEST! MM!

 

[EastUS1]

And our porfessionals tell us a loud and clear "No" from the membership has real meaning/leverage...although they support the deal.

I will defer to counsel, and we can cancel each other out, if you indeed vote NO.

Greeter.

I've no problem with people voting based on their best thoughts on this. All should vote as they think best. It's stuff like the following that gives me proper pause from the start: "And our professionals tell us a loud and clear "No" from the membership has real meaning/leverage...although they support the deal." I'm no great fan of mixed messages.......

No matter for the present time I suppose. We'll all see what more detailed info's made available fairly soon I'd think. Just the friggin' concessions alone should give anyone pause methinks. With parker and company lusting for a merger...well...if there's a time for having even the slightest leverage...this is it.

 

[traderjake]

Hey idiot boy....go read the term sheet.....who pays for those pay protections ???
God.....if only you were really as smart as you think you are!!

Whatever you say, Bar-sitter.

 

[OTTER574]

Otter said: "Remind me and all how much east alpa/usapa has saved the company going forward?"

I cannot, because we did not save anything. In fact, AAA, USAIR, US Airways managed to avoid BK and become one of the most money making airlines in the world during the 80's and early 90's. Over 50 years of business. And AWA was poster child for deregulation success. And then there was that whole airplanes flying into buildings.

Lucky to be here. Glad they (Lakefield and Parker?) were able to stich us together to maintain a living entity.

I can personally assure you the APA pilots should once again unite us, even though we have a bad history. They are, for lack of a better phrase, a beast at bay.

Greeter

And a certain federal judge and certain 9th judges will have video taped/recorded statements by my CBA/hired council....Just to keep things on the up and up during my paid for road show events by usapa known has the honest CBA/union.

OTTER

 

[A320 Driver]

Driver. I'd respectfully suggest that everyone is best served when all just drag any/all details out into the sunlight for examination and debate. It's the WTF?/uncertanty factor that so easilly allows for people to just otherwise coil up and hiss at each other, without resolving anything. Those in favor or opposed would do well as advocates, by advancing their positions through logical explanations.

I'm all ears as to why this should pass. No one reasonably wants to give up any possible gains....but must remain very much opposed based upon the glaring concessions by themselves.

Perhaps, if we're to truly discuss this issue here; we should all uncoil and hiss a bit less, if any of us are to be heard 😉

On that note...umm...sorry Otter. The "certain groups"? = Yeah...Yours!" didn't help my notion of uncoling a bit.

Maybe, just maybe...we should all actually and honestly talk about the details in this mou scenario......What the hell...it'd at least be something different to do on this board 😉 I see it as being yet more absurd and needless concessions. The floor, as always here, is open.

Frankly, the whole thing is starting to bore me. When a statement was made that I felt was incorrect based on what was relayed at the USAPA meetings, I tried to counter it with what I thought was correct. Well, now I've been accused of trying to sway votes and one clown even tried to make me feel guilty for being a captain and wants to compare paychecks. I'll say what I have always said from the beginning...one pilot, one vote. Do what you will. Just invest the time to go to a roadshow and hear the details instead of listening to the anger and rhetoric.

So you folks talk... I'm busy.

Driver...

 

[BoeingBoy]

You're long since out of all this, not personally effected by it, and can't so much as cast a vote.

Which gives me something you clearly don't have - the ability to look at issues impartially and without emotional baggage dragging me down into the abyss.

You speak of "massive concessions" so answer me this - what did that mighty scope and CoC get you in the US/HP merger? More and bigger RJ's and zero dollars in snap-back pay?

You and people like you constantly ignore reality. The reality is that Parker doesn't need a MOU with USAPA. He's not the one begging for a seat at the table. On the other hand, USAPA wants a MOU and those "massive concessions" (you think) are the price for getting one.

The reality is that if you move backward as a result of the merger, you're pay protected. Turn down the MOU and lose that. You'll get a no furlough provision. Turn down the MOU and lose that. You'll get pay parity if the AA POR is based on a merger. Turn down the MOU and lose that. But all you see is concessions because you're ignoring reality as usual. Like I said, neighbors in la-la land with Barrister, luvthe9, MM, claxon, etc.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

When a statement was made that I felt was incorrect based on what was relayed at the USAPA meetings, I tried to counter it with what I thought was correct. Well, now I've been accused of trying to sway votes and one clown even tried to make me feel guilty for being a captain and wants to compare paychecks.

With the hard core no good deed goes unpunished...anything other than blind obedience means that you must be a traitor to the cause.

Jim

 

[luvn737s]

Which gives me something you clearly don't have - the ability to look at issues impartially and without emotional baggage dragging me down into the abyss.

Just like the paid counsel and professional negotiators. They are not oblivious to the record of the company, nor are they clueless about the value of contract provisions (if they were, you'd have to question the wisdom of hiring them in the first place). But they don't overweight the consequences on the extreme frontier of possibility. We should all evaluate this based on the MOST LIKELY OUTCOME, not the absurd scenarios and conspiracy theories that some would like to gin up as prophecy.

 

[EastUS1]

Which gives me something you clearly don't have - the ability to look at issues impartially and without emotional baggage dragging me down into the abyss.

You and people like you constantly ignore reality.

But all you see is concessions because you're ignoring reality as usual. Like I said, neighbors in la-la land with Barrister, luvthe9, MM, claxon, etc.

Jim

"...the ability to look at issues impartially.."? Thanks for the laugh 😉 "... dragging me down into the abyss.."? My oh my..aren't we the drama queen again today? Love your follow up posting as well: "With the hard core no good deed goes unpunished...anything other than blind obedience means that you must be a traitor to the cause." "Which gives me something you clearly don't have - the ability to look at issues impartially and without emotional baggage dragging me down into the abyss." Feebly, yet arrogantly arguing for supposed relevance doesn't grant anyone such. Yes indeed...clearly the products of an impartial mind (or should that be more properly termed partial "mind"?) Whew!....No matter....you really do need help....period.

For the actual issues at hand:

As the bulk of your BS amounts to nothing more than further evidence of your infantile, and insane delusions of grandeur, let's look at but one actually salient point: "You speak of "massive concessions" so answer me this - what did that mighty scope and CoC get you in the US/HP merger? More and bigger RJ's and zero dollars in snap-back pay?" OK. What value might be seen should American be the acquiring entity? Moreover; what's the great gain for just giving away scope and coc?

 

[EastUS1]

I'll say what I have always said from the beginning...one pilot, one vote. Do what you will. Just invest the time to go to a roadshow and hear the details instead of listening to the anger and rhetoric.
Driver...

Works for me. I'd suggest the thought of asking every possible question that comes to mind in the process. A bit too much "personality" comes out on these boards, which I'm obviously not above adding to. Have a good one Driver.

 

[luvn737s]

Moreover; what's the great gain for just giving away scope and coc?

We all wish we had the standing to auction scope and CoC to the highest bidder, or at least an even trade, but unfortunately we don't. The pilot group has been marginalized through the antics of various factions within USAPA and now when a new leader comes into the picture that labor will at least give audience to, it's too little, too late.

If the APA feels the need to jettison east scope or CoC or any other provision in order to meet their needs, they will, regardless of hoot or hollar from the east. So the perception that these are concessions is false. They are conditions of a deal in which we are but minor players. And the disunity that some want to foster only fulfills some deep seated need for future "Itoldyaso"s. It doesn't make anyone take us any more seriously.

So yes, hash out the details and count the cost, but don't pretend you are guardians of the gate, because we've already been served with an eviction notice.

 

[BoeingBoy]

What value might be seen should American be the acquiring entity? Moreover; what's the great gain for just giving away scope and coc?

Aside from your usual "if you don't agree with EastUS something is wrong with you" (thanks for playing your usual role), two serious (???) questions although no answer will satisfy your closed mind (permanently closed it seems).

AA won't acquire US while it's in bankruptcy so the MOU dies anyway. If Parker succeeds and decides to have AA be the "acquirer" the MOU would be valid and you would get the benefits of the MOU. Perhaps for you, since that's all you care about, it wouldn't make a difference, but those junior might like the pay raise upon POR approval, pay protection, and no furlough clause - a nice little package of goodies in exchange for 1 - a CoC that can easily be avoided if Parker needs to do that and 2 - scope changes to allow AA pilots to keep flying AA planes and recognized the code shares that AA already has in place - in other words, things you'd have to give up in a transition agreement anyway.

Then there's Parker's end run around you. APA could be your representative 6-8 months after POR approval and negotiate away your scope and CoC. And you wouldn't be able to do a thing to stop it or get anything in exchange. With the US BOD approving the signing of the NDA there'll be no further negotiations with USAPA so your fantasy of using that non-existent leverage to get a mythical better offer just went away.

You only have two choices - agree to the MOU and take part or turn it down and sit in the stands claiming "We really showed them." Remember, the blame for not having a say lies at the feet of yourself and those like you so be sure to tell everyone how you voted if you end up watching from the sidelines...

Jim