AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Beancounter]

Not a political post, just adding some JF wit on fence sitters :


http://www.superiorp...38_picture.html




This is straight forward country thinking...


THE FENCE TEST.




If you ever wondered which side of the fence you sit on, this is a great test!

If a Republican doesn't like guns, he doesn't buy one.
If a Democrat doesn't like guns, he wants all guns outlawed.

If a Republican is a vegetarian, he doesn't eat meat.
If a Democrat is a vegetarian, he wants all meat products banned for everyone.

If a Republican is homosexual, he quietly leads his life.
If a Democrat is homosexual, he demands legislated respect.

If a Republican is down-and-out, he thinks about how to better his situation.
A Democrat wonders who is going to take care of him.

If a Republican doesn't like a talk show host, he switches channels.
Democrats demand that those they don't like be shut down.

If a Republican is a non-believer, he doesn't go to church.
A Democrat non-believer wants any mention of God and religion silenced.

If a Republican decides he needs health care, he goes about shopping for it, or may choose a job that provides it.
A Democrat demands that the rest of us pay for his.

If a Republican reads this, he'll forward it so his friends can have a good laugh.
A Democrat will delete it because he's "offended".

Well, I forwarded it.

What if I thought it was funny, but didn't forward it? Independent?

Oh well, back to airplane politics. You wrote earlier about Doug Parker. In my opinion, you guys gave Parker an opportunity to save money and he took it, I'd expect no less. I truly believe if you guys had stayed with ALPA and worked towards a solution we could have found one, at the very least we'd still be two separate groups with no new contract, but at least a real union. The east didn't just seek to rework or even just throw out the Nic and start over, they went after DOH. In the case of our merger, I don't care how you spin it, it's a staple job. When you guys did that you totally alienated the west, gave Doug his ammunition and lost the support of a lot of pilots outside the merger.

Respectfully, my two cents.

Bean

 

[fatherabraham]

What if I thought it was funny, but didn't forward it? Independent?

Oh well, back to airplane politics. You wrote earlier about Doug Parker. In my opinion, you guys gave Parker an opportunity to save money and he took it, I'd expect no less. I truly believe if you guys had stayed with ALPA and worked towards a solution we could have found one, at the very least we'd still be two separate groups with no new contract, but at least a real union. The east didn't just seek to rework or even just throw out the Nic and start over, they went after DOH. In the case of our merger, I don't care how you spin it, it's a staple job. When you guys did that you totally alienated the west, gave Doug his ammunition and lost the support of a lot of pilots outside the merger.

Respectfully, my two cents.




Bean

Bean,

Understand your above POV's on past. Just don't agree from this side of fence.
Recall Wye river.......woulda/coulda/shoulda ........oh well.

Should our dispute set precedent now for ANY mgt team to potentially orchestrate disunity among future sli's and oh " so reluctantly " cash in? Label me a conspiracist , but I don't think implausible going forward.

Agree that DP has benefited enormously from our discord. I'm just stating I think it's wrong that he's gotten away with it for many years.

FA

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I think it would be appropriate at this juncture to delay a vote on the MOU until such time that the company can be re-engaged; if only for the purpose of clarifying certain provisions of the document and to get a better idea of how the merger will be structured.

I'm going to communicate such to my reps.

I believe it was mentioned before, no one know's what the landscape will look like after any transaction. This blank check is terrible for our pilot group, you actually expect DUI to be true to his word. I think not! MM!

 

[EastUS1]

Piedmont1984, on 31 August 2012 - 09:21 AM, said: I think it would be appropriate at this juncture to delay a vote on the MOU until such time that the company can be re-engaged........."

Wholly agree.

As do I. Seriously; why rush into signing any blank checks over to this management?

 

[fatherabraham]

I think it would be appropriate at this juncture to delay a vote on the MOU until such time that the company can be re-engaged; if only for the purpose of clarifying certain provisions of the document and to get a better idea of how the merger will be structured.

I'm going to communicate such to my reps.

84,

Very wise words!
I think all here should copy & paste your words to their respective reps ASAP.
Simply go to the home USAPA page, click on upper right contacts then from drop down menu select usapa directory and wala all the needed email address .......then fire away often 🙂
FA

 

[EastUS1]

If we had only telegraphed an eagerness to abandon our CoC pay rates , min fleet protections, and our extensive vacation packages... imagine how much sooner mgt would have welcomed us to the table of give backs... imagine how much more participation mgt would have allowed us the privilege to enjoy...............<<Sarcasm alert,.............

Indeed sir! What a true paradise we could all be enjoying! 😉

 

[nic4us]

nic4us': "Perhaps you or Luv9...who also spouts this BS, can give me one good example of how management has screwed you....??"

Did your swoosh-emblazoned, management-worshipping kneepads and cactus skin blindfold momentarilly fall off before you followed the statement above with the below?



No matter, since team tempe's just the finest collection of quality people to ever grace the human race, and all evil stems from the vile union. We all get that 😉 Why heck!...Just look at those countless other greivances the company resolved!!...umm..waitta' minute....resolved... or was it stonewalled?

nic4us: "How does management negotiate in good faith with a loser union....?" Whew! I'd especially like to thank you for the hearty chuckles provided by combining the words "management" and "good faith" together in the same sentence. I literally almost fell outta' my chair from laughing so hard 😉

Your fantasy that ".....the change in ACARS logic"..."provided a de facto raise for the east" is just flat-out amazing...and completely wrong, btw.


It might help to sometimes, however briefly, come up for a bit of fresh air. Surprisingly; Galileo was actually right. The earth does indeed revolve around the sun....NOT the nic. 😉

um....Galileo was a long long way down the history of a heliocentric pecking order, however he did make it public following the ideas laid down by Copernicus, which also have many predecessors dating farther back than Pythagoras, who also published a heliocentric model.

Now if usapa would have just followed the same advice and not based all their decisions on avoiding the Nic...such as seeking and getting furloughed east pilots who were recalled West out of a second furlough by moving them back to the east which furloughed disproportionately less due to the company's min block violation on the West..i.e. east stole West jobs).


I guess I could be wrong about the ACARS logic change...how did the east get paid prior??.....I thought the airplane had to move on your old system, was that not correct? If I am right and the airplane had to move...east got a raise by the change to parking brake release...and you are either an idiot or a liar???

 

[EastUS1]

um....Galileo was a long long way down the history of a heliocentric pecking order, however he did make it public following the ideas laid down by Copernicus, which also have many predecessors dating farther back than Pythagoras, who also published a heliocentric model.

Amazingly enough; we can agree here. All supportive of the heliocentric, versus NIC-centric theory were/are correct. 😉

nic4us"....you are either an idiot or a liar???" Sigh! Even though this great philosophical breakthrough has happened; it's comforting to see that your inherent grace and personal harmony haven't been adversly impacted. 😉

 

[luvn737s]

As do I. Seriously; why rush into signing any blank checks over to this management?

So are you saying vote YES, but wait a little while? The West has waited a "little while" for USAPA to represent their Section 6 rights.

USAPA seems to think we should believe that delaying is different than failing to represent. One would think if USAPA sincerely wanted to represent the west in light of being parked by the NMB on joint negotiations, they would at least pursue the negotiation of a separate contract that does not hinge on SLI. I mean, you said you see nothing imminent in the AMR merger (NDA not withstanding) so there should be plenty of time to secure a raise for the west.

I hope you got as big a kick out of "sincerely" and "USAPA" in the same sentence as you did with 'Management " and "good faith".

But seriously, do you think the professional negotiators really need an additional 3 weeks to change their minds about the MOU recommendation? We don't set the timetable, and unfortunately we don't even have the leverage from our permanent position in the corner, to effect any change in the terms of the agreement.

 

[EastUS1]

So are you saying vote YES, but wait a little while?

By no means. I've yet seen nothing contained to offset what I believe to be potentially massive concessions, that inspires me, in any way, shape or form, towards putting forth a yes vote. If truly compelling reasons exist for doing so; I damn sure want to find out what they are first! Whatever others think: I simply see no purpose in EVER blindly rushing into ANY agreement of this magnitude without full and proper deliberation by all concerned.

Why should anyone feel ANY need to just rush headlong into this?

"....we don't even have the leverage from our permanent position in the corner, to effect any change in the terms of the agreement" Sigh!....Ok then little Oliver...Don't you DARE even ASK!!!...NO more porridge for you! 😉

 

[luvn737s]

I was raised ( and believe you ) to stand up against the bully w/o backing down and saying " oh well, I didn't want spanked by the principle ". This group stood up and I was never in my 20+ years as proud!
I'm guessing your like most folk and when DP steals from you, you look for recovery.
The DP mgt team will continue to slice the pie in their favor untill forced otherwise.......period

FA

The bully was the east pilot group and the mechanism they used was USAPA.

Has DP sued you in court over specious charges and caused families unnecessary stress? You didn't stand up, you laid down like a 3yr throwing a tantrum in a toy store. If you wanted to stand up, you would have delivered a TA for the pilots with DOH and rolled the dice that AOL wouldn't own USAPA+. You merely used your larger numbers to delay the JCBA and the consequences of that delay.

You sure as heck ain't the Molly Maguires.

 

[luvn737s]

Ok then little Oliver...Don't you DARE even ASK!!!...NO more porridge for you! 😉

The west has dealt with this team and their predecessor for many years. When we actually had some leverage, negotiations went like this: If you don't like 3+7=10, they'll come back with 4+6=10. With APA in the driver's seat rejecting 3+7=10 will get us X+Y=5.

Parker will not buy peace with pilots who can't even make peace with themselves.

 

[EastUS1]

The west has dealt with this team and their predecessor for many years.

I honestly mean no offence here, but unfortunately; that's actually not a bad reason for disregarding much of your argument. You'll reasonably have to excuse my properly and accurately noting that the west/AWA has, from it's inception, been a basement benchmark for horrid pay and benefits.

If it's the case that all are about to be merged into Aeroflot for the Civilized World; Isn't it about time to consider what pilots of such a massive, major airline should be compensated with?

 

[luvn737s]

I honestly mean no offence here, but unfortunately; that's actually not a bad reason for disregarding much of your argument. You'll reasonably have to excuse my properly and accurately noting that the west/AWA has, from it's inception, been a basement benchmark for horrid pay and benefits.

Well, if you think you'd like to play the "inherent superiority of US east" card as a reason to dismiss the tuition of the west, then you really need no additional time to educate yourself before voting. Vote in the comfort of your own ignorance.

 

[luvn737s]

If it's the case that all are about to be merged into Aeroflot for the Civilized World; Isn't it about time to consider what pilots of such a massive, major airline should be compensated with?

That will be a valid question to answer at the next contract (or more likely subsequent contracts) once we have built the necessary leverage and unity that was so casually jettisoned by the contingent from the back of the van.

Like the old song, "You don't know what you got till it's gone..."