AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

Actually, we gave...

Dear Piedmont 1984,

How true it is we gave... We gave up so much in vacation, rigs, and aircraft hulls that we effectively now have:
--1/2 as many planes,
-- have at least 5 days less per month at home, and
-- get paid at least 40% less
-- suffered downgrades or loss of block
-- lost bases
-- and gave away our pension (true 13 ALPA punks gave it to mgt, but since we are making an accounting of what we gave to mgt, the pension is also in the column of "gave up")

We alienated management to such an extent...

No matter how hard I try, I can't conceive any reason to disparage my fellow pilots (accept perhaps by saying they are toooo generous to management's requests to save the company. Yes, I can fault the pilots for being too generous to management.) But I CANNOT conceive of any reason to disparage my fellow pilots for being so insensitive as to alienate management... after all the sacrifices we have made that have benefitted this airline, our fellow employees, and even our passengers, how can you even speak with any affection for a management that has an unending appetite for making profits by making you work twice as much for less than half the pay? We alienated management?

Management never once went away licking their wounded heart for sorrow of being alienated... Mgt is smart enough to know business is business and never once needed our affections. Our money and time is all that they need.

Have you considered that the only ones being alienated are the ones who have no respect for their fellow pilots or any intention of insisting all pilots are compensated to industry standards?

 

[Walmartgreeter]

From the latest BPR update:
The Weeks Ahead
We now have anywhere between 60 – 90 days before we will know how any merger deal will be structured. Without knowing the outcome of AMR's and US Airways' confidential negotiations, we cannot imagine that signing on to the MOU – as it stands today – would be advisable. Paragraph 19 of the MOU states that the APA needs to agree with 10 of the other paragraphs and, should they not reach a consensus with both US Airways management and USAPA, we may end up giving away items like minimum fleet and block hour protections (read scope) and conceivably receive nothing in return. Simply put, right now, the MOU is an incomplete document whose formation was interrupted (perhaps intentionally?) by AMR's request to US Airways Management and their subsequent agreement to "cease union negotiations."

I guess they just make this stuff up. If you believe Parker and Kirby have been in the dark as to the finances of AMR Corp. over the last 2 years, I have some swampland to sell you all.

The logical analysis is they will come out of AMR HQ, white smoke billowing, sometime between now and late December, as soon as mere weeks from now (to give the appearance of due diligence.) In fact, leave no doubt, the ONLY thing being worked out now is who runs this thing and how much the other guys get paid on exit. Or course, the news could be no merger. Then MOU has no meaning. I have some more swampland for you all to buy.

Having not seen the MOU, the CLT reps had a meeting to tell you to vote NO.

Having not seen the MOU the BPR voted to send out "anything" to the pilots.

THEN:

NAC and Wilder brief the BPR, and all give thumbs up. Wilder, Merger Counsel, and General Counsel (all elected by the BPR….two hired by Cleary) say send it out yesterday, and approve it. Time is critical. 120 years of law between them all. No doubt they are warning the BPR.
Wilder says "this is it, all there is." You will hurt my position in the JNC process if you send me back. More to get there, just don't waste capital now.

BPR sends it out, BPR says vote NO. BPR tells Wilder to go back for more.

Kirby gives us the finger.

BPR now threatens to "pull" the vote with "as it stands language. "To send the MOU out for Membership Ratification and as it stands today, voting will commence on or around September 21st."
As it stands today? They stupidly forced themselves to send out "anything" before they saw it (thanks CLT reps!) now have remorse? They are not in touch; this thing will pass as is by over 75%

If they screw this up, here is the conversation a Group II C/O has with his Rep after the Merger is announced:

Do I get the 50K raise?
No
Do I get the 10K bonus"
No
Do I have 5:1widebody downsize protection with APA and the termsheet?
No
Do I have 2:1 narrowbody downsize protection with APA and the termsheet?
No
Can AMR put all the 190s on our side?
Yes
Is the NIC actually dead now with M/B language in the MOU?
No, the MOU is gone, it lives.
Do we have M/B leverage at the table with our "ratios?"
No, the MOU is gone
Can we now cash in our COC and code share, it's worth a lot?
Sure, big merger coming up with Virgin, no wait, Alaska, uh..not sure.
Did you show Parker who was boss, and let him know what you think?
I sure did!
So what is your plan going forward?
Sound of crickets.
Greeter

 

[Phoenix]

That will be a valid question to answer at the next contract (or more likely subsequent contracts) once we have built the necessary leverage and unity that was so casually jettisoned by the contingent from the back of the van.

Like the old song, "You don't know what you got till it's gone..."

Not one BPR member voted to approve this MOU. Go ahead, break ranks and vote yes, then turn around and accuse everyone of having no leverage.

 

[Crzipilot]

Care to come up with even one example of how the company unilaterally harmed the east? By that I mean, one example of how the company pulled a policy or work rule out of thin air or changed its interpretation of same, that harmed the east, without it being the direct result of usapa's actions.

Quickly to mind would be the process of recall from furlough, J4J held grievance, ...there's two.

 

[Phoenix]

From the latest BPR update:
The Weeks Ahead
We now have anywhere between 60 – 90 days before we will know how any merger deal will be structured. Without knowing the outcome of AMR's and US Airways' confidential negotiations, we cannot imagine that signing on to the MOU – as it stands today – would be advisable. Paragraph 19 of the MOU states that the APA needs to agree with 10 of the other paragraphs and, should they not reach a consensus with both US Airways management and USAPA, we may end up giving away items like minimum fleet and block hour protections (read scope) and conceivably receive nothing in return. Simply put, right now, the MOU is an incomplete document whose formation was interrupted (perhaps intentionally?) by AMR's request to US Airways Management and their subsequent agreement to "cease union negotiations."

I guess they just make this stuff up. If you believe Parker and Kirby have been in the dark as to the finances of AMR Corp. over the last 2 years, I have some swampland to sell you all.

The logical analysis is they will come out of AMR HQ, white smoke billowing, sometime between now and late December, as soon as mere weeks from now (to give the appearance of due diligence.) In fact, leave no doubt, the ONLY thing being worked out now is who runs this thing and how much the other guys get paid on exit. Or course, the news could be no merger. Then MOU has no meaning. I have some more swampland for you all to buy.

Having not seen the MOU, the CLT reps had a meeting to tell you to vote NO.

Having not seen the MOU the BPR voted to send out "anything" to the pilots.

THEN:

NAC and Wilder brief the BPR, and all give thumbs up. Wilder, Merger Counsel, and General Counsel (all elected by the BPR….two hired by Cleary) say send it out yesterday, and approve it. Time is critical. 120 years of law between them all. No doubt they are warning the BPR.
Wilder says "this is it, all there is." You will hurt my position in the JNC process if you send me back. More to get there, just don't waste capital now.

BPR sends it out, BPR says vote NO. BPR tells Wilder to go back for more.

Kirby gives us the finger.

BPR now threatens to "pull" the vote with "as it stands language. "To send the MOU out for Membership Ratification and as it stands today, voting will commence on or around September 21st."
As it stands today? They stupidly forced themselves to send out "anything" before they saw it (thanks CLT reps!) now have remorse? They are not in touch; this thing will pass as is by over 75%

If they screw this up, here is the conversation a Group II C/O has with his Rep after the Merger is announced:

Do I get the 50K raise?
No
Do I get the 10K bonus"
No
Do I have 5:1widebody downsize protection with APA and the termsheet?
No
Do I have 2:1 narrowbody downsize protection with APA and the termsheet?
No
Can AMR put all the 190s on our side?
Yes
Is the NIC actually dead now with M/B language in the MOU?
No, the MOU is gone, it lives.
Do we have M/B leverage at the table with our "ratios?"
No, the MOU is gone
Can we now cash in our COC and code share, it's worth a lot?
Sure, big merger coming up with Virgin, no wait, Alaska, uh..not sure.
Did you show Parker who was boss, and let him know what you think?
I sure did!
So what is your plan going forward?
Sound of crickets.
Greeter

Its never too late to give up min fleet. If we give them the opportunity to decrease mainline by 15-20% every year and increase codeshare and Express by no limits then we will all be lucky to be Walmart greeters.

 

[luvn737s]

Not one BPR member voted to approve this MOU. Go ahead, break ranks and vote yes, then turn around and accuse everyone of having no leverage.

This is a vote of no confidence in the BPR, in case there was any doubt.

The BPR has done little more than spend money on east pet projects, foment disunity among the east-west and embarrass the pilot group on a daily basis. If you wanted to be leaders, you shouldn't have squandered your opportunity.

The wolf (with blood in it's mouth) said, "I think the little boy said 'Wolf!'".

 

[EastUS1]

Well, if you think you'd like to play the "inherent superiority of US east" card as a reason to dismiss the tuition of the west, then you really need no additional time to educate yourself before voting. Vote in the comfort of your own ignorance.

Ummm...MY own ignorance?....OK. I suppose that knee-jerk, nyaah-nyaah was to be expected....but the truth remains that using the west/AWA as ANY proper benchmark for anything approaching a respectable, no, even marginally adequate negotiation history, that EVER resulted in anything even coming miles within sight of respectable compensation would truly be a fool's errand. If you see that very reasonable observation as some west vs east issue, and are both ecstatic and immensely proud of your august history therein...well....that's your problem. One can only wonder at why the collective pilots of all airlines haven't striven to duplicate your magnificent successes, and secretly lusted in their dreams to have even your current, and best EVER contract set as the universal benchmark for all everywhere.

Current compensation for both east and west is pathetic....period!

 

[EastUS1]

That will be a valid question to answer at the next contract (or more likely subsequent contracts).....

More likely NEVER, at least while burdened with that philosophy......

 

[Piedmont1984]

I'm still sitting on this here fence. Fence sitters - by definition - don't drink the koolaid of either side.

Maybe alienated was a bad choice of words. Better to say we completely severed all ties with management - which was counterproductive.

Dear Phoenix

I'll attribute your uncharacteristically long post to the possible fact that you typed it under the influence of happy hour - since you seem to have missed my subsequent post (above) from later this morning.

Speaking of disparaging fellow pilots - I just know you've never engaged in such 🙂 Hey Phoenix...when you're out walking on water do you still bring a towel, you know, to dry off the bottom of your feet?

 

[traderjake]

-- and gave away our pension (true 13 ALPA punks gave it to mgt, but since we are making an accounting of what we gave to mgt, the pension is also in the column of "gave up")

The reason we lost the pension is that on two occasions the MEC voted down freezing the plan.

John Davis, Bill McKee's mentor got his lump sum.

Ask Bill McKee how he voted.

 

[Phoenix]

The reason we lost the pension is that on two occasions the MEC voted down freezing the plan.

John Davis, Bill McKee's mentor got his lump sum.

Ask Bill McKee how he voted.

I am 100% sure Bill McKee did not get to vote on it. I can't say that I am 100% sure you didn't get to vote on it.

 

[EastUS1]

Is the NIC actually dead now with M/B language in the MOU?
No, the MOU is gone, it lives.
Do we have M/B leverage at the table with our "ratios?"
No, the MOU is gone

Greeter: How do you see the seniority integration going if the mou is accepted sir? (Assuming the merger of course) No universal flame bait, or even bait of any kind intended, just an honest question, fully worth consideration I think. This is the sort of detail all should gain some idea of before voting.

 

[Phoenix]

Dear Phoenix

I'll attribute your uncharacteristically long post to the possible fact that you typed it under the influence of happy hour - since you seem to have missed my subsequent post (above) from later this morning.

Speaking of disparaging fellow pilots - I just know you've never engaged in such 🙂 Hey Phoenix...when you're out walking on water do you still bring a towel, you know, to dry off the bottom of your feet?

I've never voted for elimination of mainline fleet, never agreed to 15-20% year over year reductions, or agreed to any pay rate reductions (not for any pilots on our seniority list). I have always voted in favor of supporting medical payments for furloughed pilots. I sincerely hope you can say the same.

We can turn this into discussions about how the pilots ruined their opportunity to have mgt like us, or we can admit that chasing accolades from cut throat business tycoons will get you nothing but more throat cutting.

 

[EastUS1]

......or we can admit that chasing accolades from cut throat business tycoons will get you nothing but more throat cutting.

Not to mention robust, merry gales of laughter and snide snickering from them in the process.....

 

[luvn737s]

Ummm...MY own ignorance?....OK. I suppose that knee-jerk, nyaah-nyaah was to be expected....but the truth remains that using the west/AWA as ANY proper benchmark for anything approaching a respectable, no, even marginally adequate negotiation history, that EVER resulted in anything even coming miles within sight of respectable compensation would truly be a fool's errand. If you see that very reasonable observation as some west vs east issue, and are both ecstatic and immensely proud of your august history therein...well....that's your problem. One can only wonder at why the collective pilots of all airlines haven't striven to duplicate your magnificent successes, and secretly lusted in their dreams to have even your current, and best EVER contract set as the universal benchmark for all everywhere.

Current compensation for both east and west is pathetic....period!

I would expect you to be ignorant of the history of AWA, but I wouldn't expect you to dismiss the experience of the west pilot group in negotiaing with the current management. The tactics of Cleary (which included ignoring the advice of the west pilots) didn't yield any tangible benefits, so what is the downside risk to learning from your west counterparts, save your own pride?

I would posit that trajectories are a better guage of success than nostalgia. The AWA pilots were building on incremental success, while the East pilots ignored reality at their own peril. The future pilot labor leaders of AA/US will have to committ to that same steady, boring, incremental improvements and leave the drama for the theatre.