AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Piedmont1984]

Bottom line is this. If you're not planning on using these tools - why ask for them? They had no place in the MOU.

But I will remain open minded. If the document is resurrected, I will listen and learn.

Over and out.

 

[luvthe9]

I believe as the RJ contracts expire, they will bring much of that flying, with 190s or otherwise, back in house where it belongs. And no, I don't think they want to shrink capacity. Parker has said repeatedly that the industry has pretty much rightsized and there is no need for further reductions. We've seen first hand how shrinking yourself into profitability works. Short answer...it didn't. It very nearly did us in.

Honest answer.

And I specifically remember our ADVISORS telling us they needed the RJ s for feed. Then the RJ's became more numerous than mainline. And then it took us down. Roadshows, telling us that we had to do RJ s in massive numbers in order to compete. Advisors telling us.......The best advice is to do what Southwest does, and you might survive. They have no RJ s and they know how to treat their employees nicely. It goes a long way. Every tool you ever gave this company has been misused. Rigs- they sat you, Metrojet, they only got the pilots pay cuts. RJ s and they gave the airline away. The list goes on and on. You know better than they do, it ain't that hard. If you are convinced they won't cut back because it is a bad move, then make them contractually bound. Because they will. Honestly, how many times do you have to have the football moved when you go to kick it before you learn?

 

[luvthe9]

I believe as the RJ contracts expire, they will bring much of that flying, with 190s or otherwise, back in house where it belongs. And no, I don't think they want to shrink capacity. Parker has said repeatedly that the industry has pretty much rightsized and there is no need for further reductions. We've seen first hand how shrinking yourself into profitability works. Short answer...it didn't. It very nearly did us in.

Honest answer.

Honest answer. Don't trust Parker.

 

[luvthe9]

Bottom line is this. If you're not planning on using these tools - why ask for them? They had no place in the MOU.

But I will remain open minded. If the document is resurrected, I will listen and learn.

Over and out.

Piedmont, I think you get the fact that every concession you ever gave, has been misused or used against you. Why would you ever give anything to Parker when he never gave you parity? It is very easy to say no. They want you at the table because they want to eat you!

 

[EastUS1]

Piedmont, I think you get the fact that every concession you ever gave, has been misused or used against you.

If you are convinced they won't cut back because it is a bad move, then make them contractually bound. Because they will.

"...then make them contractually bound."

Yep. Anyone that chooses to do otherwise and acts instead on misplaced faith....requires their ignoring history entirely.....

George Santayana: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

 

[luvn737s]

I agree that the merger doesn't make sense if they plan to shrink and cede even more market share. But domestic market share can be maintained and increased quite nicely with more 190 series aircraft than God can count.

So retire/return/replace larger gage single aisle aircraft with super RJs paying category C wages.

If you ain't gonna shrink a part of your fleet - why ask for a free hand to do just that?

The fleet min offered no flexibility. Parker is hyper conservative by nature and will not do anything substantially different than what every other airline does. This is especially true with a cash-hungry merger where any outside-the-box missteps can spell disaster.

Remember, deal with the most likely possibilities rather than basing your decision on what lies at the fringe of possibility.

 

[luvn737s]

Piedmont, I think you get the fact that every concession you ever gave, has been misused or used against you. Why would you ever give anything to Parker when he never gave you parity? It is very easy to say no. They want you at the table because they want to eat you!

Now there's the voice of reason. Plus Bourbon.

 

[luvn737s]

Huh? How is that twisted BS even fantasized? I'm perfectly pleased that alpa was dismissed and usapa created! The "crippling aftermath" has seen many nic free years and a sizeable number of formerly displaced east captains properly back in the left seat, as well as hundreds of people improving their overall bid status. In any case; what does ANY of your entire last post (as is the typical case) have at ALL to do with ANYTHING considering this ridiculous mou?

Really, that's it? A Sizeable number upgrading and hundreds improving their bid status and USAPA claims credit for that? And that required millions in dues money?

Absent USAPA EVERYONE would be earning more money and EVERYONE would be prepared to defend their contracts in the AA merger with a sizeable war chest. Pilot labor would be unified and relevant and the MOU we would be looking at would be light years ahead of the current one.

Don't like the MOU? Look in the mirror at the guy to blame for it.

 

[nic4us]

Really, that's it? A Sizeable number upgrading and hundreds improving their bid status and USAPA claims credit for that? And that required millions in dues money?

Absent USAPA EVERYONE would be earning more money and EVERYONE would be prepared to defend their contracts in the AA merger with a sizeable war chest. Pilot labor would be unified and relevant and the MOU we would be looking at would be light years ahead of the current one.

Don't like the MOU? Look in the mirror at the guy to blame for it.

I think Cleardirect already put a dollar amount to it and it was like 2.5 million spent/wasted/lost per east out of seniority upgrade.

going forward, with the greatly diminished position we would hold in a SLI with AMR, the idiots have cost us all vastly more.

 

[nic4us]

The company seems to like the phrase - force majeure. I wonder if they employ the same clause with the aircraft manufacturers?

There was no indication in the MOU language that RJ shrinkage was on the horizon, not even the cosmological event horizon.

Well..just being a SA here, but, if they were on the event horizon...you would never see it, and in a general relativity (I like relative theory) aspect, they could not affect an outside observer.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

I have been quiet for a week or so, trying to soak up the feel of the membership and this board. It is now crystal clear to me what must happen.

Not sure of Robert’s Rules, since this is a continuation of a meeting, but the BPR needs to act now. First order of business is to immediately replace General Council, Merger Council, and especially
our Professional Negotiator. Even though these guys work for us (and not all of ALPA as before) is obvious they have been conspiring with Hummel since his election. Roland beat out the Teamsters (thanks to the CLT reps) and the other two were appointed by Cleary. They are all corrupt now, having gone off the reservation unanimously recommending that the MOU be put out AS IS and YESTERDAY. How dare them do that, they are all being paid off by Parker. What a bunch of losers! Don’t trust them!

As to the NAC, consisting of Dean (a holdover from as far back as ALPA), Owens (beaming down in his red shirt) and the two West guys (selling us out for the NIC no matter how much a deal might help their families) they also ALL need to be fired, immediately. They cannot be trusted. Perhaps a recall of all the Officers is in order also. I am sure at least 3 of them are in full support of the MOU, having not touched base with number 4 (he is too busy stealing PIC moneys and diverting them to his account in the Caymans to reply to me.)

I hope the BPR acts with wicked precision, and takes out at least all of Legal and our entire NAC this week, as they all (each and every one) are all not to be trusted. USAPA was founded on the ideal that Professionals could do better than line pilots at the table with decision making. Of course there was never any mentioning of actually listening to them.

Greeter

 

[EastUS1]

The fleet min offered no flexibility.

That sounds like a management problem, which no sane labor group member should be fretting over. In any case: What should surrendering it be worth then?

The scariest part here is that you seem to actually believe that giving team tempe carte blanche to use whatever "flexibility" it wants is somehow a GOOD thing for ANY labor group!!?? Un-be-lieve-able!!!!

 

[EastUS1]

Don't like the MOU?

Proper credit where it's due here...You truly don't miss a trick!

 

[Phoenix]

That sounds like a management problem, which no sane labor group member should be fretting over. In any case: What should surrendering it be worth then?

The scariest part here is that you seem to actually believe that giving team tempe carte blanche to use whatever "flexibility" it wants is somehow a GOOD thing for ANY labor group!!?? Un-be-lieve-able!!!!

Flexibility! Mgt has parked over half our planes in the last ten years and replaced them with shiny RJs.

There is plenty of flexibility to grow the number of mainline jets to a number larger than the post 911 bankruptcy survival retreat min fleet.

No more concessions. Never. No more. Nada. Zip. Zilch. No more concessions to no body.

 

[traderjake]

No more concessions. Never. No more. Nada. Zip. Zilch. No more concessions to no body.

If APA becomes our CBA I'm sure they'll be very concerned for our sacrifices and resolve.