traderjake
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AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion
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luvn737s:Y'all earned every bit of the treatment you've got to look forward to. Who am I to gyp ya?
I take it you've discarded your earlier fantasy of misplaced power and revenge? Good. That's a healthy step in the right direction. On the other hand; your sadly standard fantasy of magically knowing "..what others are thinking..." at any time, is a delusional notion all do well to jettison early in life. No matter. Have a good day. 😉
I take it you've discarded your earlier fantasy of misplaced power and revenge? Good. That's a healthy step in the right direction. On the other hand; your sadly standard fantasy of magically knowing "..what others are thinking..." at any time, is a delusional notion all do well to jettison early in life. No matter. Have a good day. 😉
I can't honestly see the value in advancing the notion of establishing seniority (or making any decisions) based purely on whatever's perceived to be the latest in fashion statements......Even Beau Brummell himself ultmately came to grief doing so. 😉
cactusboy53
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Nevergiveup: 9/25 @ 1408… “Sorry about your upgrade. Welcome to the airlines!”
MUTATIS MUTANDIS: 9/25 @ 1534…. “Cry me a WYE RIVER, hope your DECK CHAIR is comfortable! MM!”
EastUS: 9/25 @ 1751…. "Tissue?" Aww...there, there...just take the whole box of 'em...after all...you're "entitled"..aren't you? ”
East US: 9/25 @ 1821….. “Well...that's really your group's fault. Despite repeated requests; no one's yet sent me any way-cool "Integrity Matters" T-shirt(s)....so how am I ever supposed to instantly and magically imbue myself with such?”
B-E-A-UTIFUL answers boys. You make it so much more easy to not feel badly for you every time a decision doesn't go your way (that would be all of them, with the exception of the delay caused by the ninth).
When Judge Silver makes her decision it will be interesting to see the activity on the boards. Hyperbole will reign supreme from you fellas, I am "supremely confident".
MUTATIS MUTANDIS: 9/25 @ 1534…. “Cry me a WYE RIVER, hope your DECK CHAIR is comfortable! MM!”
EastUS: 9/25 @ 1751…. "Tissue?" Aww...there, there...just take the whole box of 'em...after all...you're "entitled"..aren't you? ”
East US: 9/25 @ 1821….. “Well...that's really your group's fault. Despite repeated requests; no one's yet sent me any way-cool "Integrity Matters" T-shirt(s)....so how am I ever supposed to instantly and magically imbue myself with such?”
B-E-A-UTIFUL answers boys. You make it so much more easy to not feel badly for you every time a decision doesn't go your way (that would be all of them, with the exception of the delay caused by the ninth).
When Judge Silver makes her decision it will be interesting to see the activity on the boards. Hyperbole will reign supreme from you fellas, I am "supremely confident".
CallawayGolf
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So he lasted twice as long as anyone else who held that position, and he was fired because he wouldn't trade his integrity in interpretation of the rules and policies set before him just to make labor peace. That's all you got on a highly accomplished arbitrator who has a list of accolades longer than a list of your grammatical errors? Besides, this event occurred more than ten years before he was selected to settled the AAA/HP dispute. Why didn't the east strike him from the list if they feared he was "out of touch" as you say? I could only hope to be as "in touch" as he is when I reach his distinguished age.
It has always been my contention that each case turns on its own merits. So, that is not to say that a DOH integration could never again be the method that is arrived at through the process of a fair integration. However, it was not the method used for our integration, because it simply cannot arrive at a fair conclusion. That is why Parker and Lakefield gave you the heads up in the company's statement of labor principles prior to the integration. That is what your own negotiating committee tried to tell you. That is what Nicolau told the east. That is what Wake and jury deliberated on. Why can you not get it through your head that it ain't going to happen? Maybe because of the history of mergers that you reference. so, lets take a look at that.
I am not that familiar with each of these acquisitions, but my limited understanding is that AAA basically bought another company and grew what would become the USAir brand, would that be correct? In each of these cases, it would be as though the pilots of the acquired company were being added to the USAir pilot list. If the groups DOH's were compatible, you could easily arrive at a fair longevity based integration. Well, not this time. This time AWA acquired AAA. The AWA pilots were not added to the growing AAA list, quite the contrary. This time it is more like you were added to the AWA list to form the LCC list. So, how do we arrive at a "fair integration" when in the words of the DL/NW arbitrators,
But in this case, that method is not sufficiently responsive to the makeup of
these two groups. The relative seniority mismatch between the two contingents results,
when combined by Date-of-Hire, in a dramatic overloading of NWA pilots in premium
flying categories, an imbalance that remains a virtual fixture in the ongoing relationship
between the parties.
11
The answere is we certainly do not use DOH for our methodology. We combine by status and category, reasonable career expectation, and nobody gets a windfall at the others expense.
That is the method, that was what was done, it is over. How Lake Central, or Mohawk were integrated is beyond irrelevant to our case. Our case had its own merits. Those merits dictated the obvious result to reach a fair integration. That fair integration is the Nic,,,end of story.
Move2CLT
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I see team idiot (Menear, Ciabattoni, and Seham) have put out more FUD. I really hope you east guys see this as nothing more than crap.
You do see this as crap, don't you?
Compass Correction Coalition: A bigger steam roller
PERHAPS IF THEY GOT A LARGER STEAMROLLER?
One oft repeated warning from those who believe that the MOU is our last, best hope in negotiations with US Airways management and APA is this; if we don’t sign on, APA and US Airways will simply declare us a part of APA and we will be powerless to stop management from imposing the Term Sheet and/or any other aspect of the APA’s bankruptcy contract. USAPA will be decertified on the US Airways property and any and every aspect of our working agreement will cease to exist.
In short, advocates for signing onto the MOU, as negotiated by our Negotiating Advisory Committee, (NAC) say that if we do not sign on, the pilots of US Airways will simply be steamrolled.
Well, it ain’t necessarily so, as the old song goes. One of the most germane court cases, pertaining to situations like the potential one, should American merge with US Airways involves the old USAir, when they took over the management of the old Eastern Shuttle, (Trump Shuttle).
Briefly, the Flight Attendants of Trump Shuttle were represented by the TWU, those Flight Attendants of USAir, by the AFA. The AFA contract was in virtually all respects, superior to that of the TWU, at Trump. AFA sued USAir, when the company made it clear that they were going to honor the TWU contract, until there was a merger and, more to the point, until AFA opened their contract and negotiated a new, single contract for all.
AFA contended that with the dissolution of the TWU, on the Shuttle property, that the Flight Attendants there employed, would automatically fall under the contract of USAir, since the TWU was no longer the Collective Bargaining Agent for the Trump Flight Attendants.
USAir argued that the AFA had a responsibility to administer the TWU contract, on behalf of the Shuttle FA’s and the contract from AFA, in the case of USAir.
It turns out that the law mandates that existing contracts survive, until there is an opening of negotiations for a new, single collective bargaining agreement for all.
There is no prohibition against having more than one contract for a class of workers at the same company. One need only reflect on the fact that USAirways management has gotten away with paying the East Pilots less, giving us less vacation, etc., than our West counterparts, for 5 years.
What USAirways could not do, which they sincerely want to, is to abrogate our Minimum Fleet Size and Minimum Block Hour provisions. They cannot either, blithely ignore our Change of Control provisions, in the event of a transaction with AMR.
One of the most highly regarded expert attorneys, in the arcane and small community of Airline Labor Law commented to me thusly: “You had better love every aspect of the Term Sheet, as is; because if you sign onto this MOU, the negotiations are effectively complete.” He also passed on this nugget: “About the only way that USAirways can get around your wonderful Scope language and the very good Change of Control language, is if you, the Pilots of USAirways sign onto the MOU. If you do that, your leverage is gone.”
As usual, if you get a second lawyer to look at this language, you will get about four total opinions…. However, the fact that we shouldn’t rush into signing the MOU and thereby instantly give up potentially hugely valuable leverage, comes through loud and clear, to me.
Why on Earth, would our merger partners at APA, want to steamroll us into a crappy Term Sheet? Haven’t they demonstrated their new-found distain for any such working agreement for themselves? As we suggested in an earlier Compass Correction, by becoming members of USAPA, APA members neatly get around the Term Sheet….but only if we at USAPA resist the knee jerk reaction to take the first deal; a very bad one at that.
No legal opinion makes for riveting, or particularly easy reading. I have attached the Ruling from the D.C. Appeals Court, in the matter of USAir, vs. AFA. If one wades through it, the message is clear……someone is going to need a bigger steamroller.
Click HERE to view the judges ruling on the USAir vs AFA.
Fraternally,
Woody Menear-PHL 76i
You do see this as crap, don't you?
Compass Correction Coalition: A bigger steam roller
PERHAPS IF THEY GOT A LARGER STEAMROLLER?
One oft repeated warning from those who believe that the MOU is our last, best hope in negotiations with US Airways management and APA is this; if we don’t sign on, APA and US Airways will simply declare us a part of APA and we will be powerless to stop management from imposing the Term Sheet and/or any other aspect of the APA’s bankruptcy contract. USAPA will be decertified on the US Airways property and any and every aspect of our working agreement will cease to exist.
In short, advocates for signing onto the MOU, as negotiated by our Negotiating Advisory Committee, (NAC) say that if we do not sign on, the pilots of US Airways will simply be steamrolled.
Well, it ain’t necessarily so, as the old song goes. One of the most germane court cases, pertaining to situations like the potential one, should American merge with US Airways involves the old USAir, when they took over the management of the old Eastern Shuttle, (Trump Shuttle).
Briefly, the Flight Attendants of Trump Shuttle were represented by the TWU, those Flight Attendants of USAir, by the AFA. The AFA contract was in virtually all respects, superior to that of the TWU, at Trump. AFA sued USAir, when the company made it clear that they were going to honor the TWU contract, until there was a merger and, more to the point, until AFA opened their contract and negotiated a new, single contract for all.
AFA contended that with the dissolution of the TWU, on the Shuttle property, that the Flight Attendants there employed, would automatically fall under the contract of USAir, since the TWU was no longer the Collective Bargaining Agent for the Trump Flight Attendants.
USAir argued that the AFA had a responsibility to administer the TWU contract, on behalf of the Shuttle FA’s and the contract from AFA, in the case of USAir.
It turns out that the law mandates that existing contracts survive, until there is an opening of negotiations for a new, single collective bargaining agreement for all.
There is no prohibition against having more than one contract for a class of workers at the same company. One need only reflect on the fact that USAirways management has gotten away with paying the East Pilots less, giving us less vacation, etc., than our West counterparts, for 5 years.
What USAirways could not do, which they sincerely want to, is to abrogate our Minimum Fleet Size and Minimum Block Hour provisions. They cannot either, blithely ignore our Change of Control provisions, in the event of a transaction with AMR.
One of the most highly regarded expert attorneys, in the arcane and small community of Airline Labor Law commented to me thusly: “You had better love every aspect of the Term Sheet, as is; because if you sign onto this MOU, the negotiations are effectively complete.” He also passed on this nugget: “About the only way that USAirways can get around your wonderful Scope language and the very good Change of Control language, is if you, the Pilots of USAirways sign onto the MOU. If you do that, your leverage is gone.”
As usual, if you get a second lawyer to look at this language, you will get about four total opinions…. However, the fact that we shouldn’t rush into signing the MOU and thereby instantly give up potentially hugely valuable leverage, comes through loud and clear, to me.
Why on Earth, would our merger partners at APA, want to steamroll us into a crappy Term Sheet? Haven’t they demonstrated their new-found distain for any such working agreement for themselves? As we suggested in an earlier Compass Correction, by becoming members of USAPA, APA members neatly get around the Term Sheet….but only if we at USAPA resist the knee jerk reaction to take the first deal; a very bad one at that.
No legal opinion makes for riveting, or particularly easy reading. I have attached the Ruling from the D.C. Appeals Court, in the matter of USAir, vs. AFA. If one wades through it, the message is clear……someone is going to need a bigger steamroller.
Click HERE to view the judges ruling on the USAir vs AFA.
Fraternally,
Woody Menear-PHL 76i
The east desperately wanted Nicolau...... until they didn't.
Move2CLT
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Let's take a look at some of Woobatonni's BS:
"very good Change of Control language"
Say what?!?
"They cannot either, blithely ignore our Change of Control provisions, in the event of a transaction with AMR"
Company has been there, done that.
"USAirways management has gotten away with paying the East Pilots less, giving us less vacation, etc., than our West counterparts, for 5 years."
And with no MOU, you will continue to get less until a new contract is negotiated by the APA on your behalf. Another year? 18 months?
Remember all the sure things these guys keep putting out and citing all these cases that back up their sure thing? How have those turned out for you easties?
They haven't. Ever.
Promises of victory give way to one defeat after another.
Time to stop listening to your east idiots. This isn't the first time Ciabatonni has screwed you guys.
"very good Change of Control language"
Say what?!?
"They cannot either, blithely ignore our Change of Control provisions, in the event of a transaction with AMR"
Company has been there, done that.
"USAirways management has gotten away with paying the East Pilots less, giving us less vacation, etc., than our West counterparts, for 5 years."
And with no MOU, you will continue to get less until a new contract is negotiated by the APA on your behalf. Another year? 18 months?
Remember all the sure things these guys keep putting out and citing all these cases that back up their sure thing? How have those turned out for you easties?
They haven't. Ever.
Promises of victory give way to one defeat after another.
Time to stop listening to your east idiots. This isn't the first time Ciabatonni has screwed you guys.
Walmartgreeter
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From the guys at CC: "One oft repeated warning from those who believe that the MOU is our last, best hope in negotiations with US Airways management and APA is this; if we don't sign on, APA and US Airways will simply declare us a part of APA and we will be powerless to stop management from imposing the Term Sheet and/or any other aspect of the APA's bankruptcy contract. USAPA will be decertified on the US Airways property and any and every aspect of our working agreement will cease to exist."
The MOU is not our "last, best hope." There is always the possibility of "better terms." But the risk we are taking does not justify the only fantasy ends. If the BPR ever allows Comm to communicate what we are actually risking, vs. our possible returns in the courts (including arbitration) we will all be very, very sad if we are bypassed by the Company. Parker and Kirby will simply do a cost analysis, moving on without us. They will not go head to head with us, they will simply walk around us. It will then be up to us to get back in the game, hoping we prevail in the legal arena.
Greeter
The MOU is not our "last, best hope." There is always the possibility of "better terms." But the risk we are taking does not justify the only fantasy ends. If the BPR ever allows Comm to communicate what we are actually risking, vs. our possible returns in the courts (including arbitration) we will all be very, very sad if we are bypassed by the Company. Parker and Kirby will simply do a cost analysis, moving on without us. They will not go head to head with us, they will simply walk around us. It will then be up to us to get back in the game, hoping we prevail in the legal arena.
Greeter
You are absolutely full of it...
Calling a 40 year old methodology that is now federal law "the latest fashion statement".
There is a Nic seniority list in your future, or at least the future of those you are abetting in their seniority theft endeavour.
Desperation coming on strong in the western hub. They know Silver is going to shoot their dreams with her ruling. This entire Nicolau
outlier will be thrown out shortly.
Scab Maneater has no business using "Fraternally" as his salutation.
Perhaps somebody should point out to this idiot and his little union busting lawyer that indeed........"It turns out that the law mandates that existing contracts survive, until there is an opening of negotiations for a new, single collective bargaining agreement for all."
That means Nic, and it means usapa is charged with administering not only the east's contract and LOA93...they have to administer the West contracts as well. Failure to do so is a violation of usapa's DFR.
Welcome to LCC woody maneater, you pathetic scab.
Move2CLT
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Move2CLT
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Someone really gets it.
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