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AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

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Got that right! No shortage of WEST lawsuits, getting laughable now! What makes you think the EAST pilots wouldn't SUE if the NIC is used, no shortage of litigation move'n forward! It is why unions have a wide range of reason phrase attatched! I am for DOH with C&R's, How do you compete for a job, when the pilot on the list ahead of you was 17, aint right, but then again I don't want his job out west either!

One lawsuit equates to no shortage in your mind?

Seriously folks, lets try to get the facts straight. The West has filed exactly one lawsuit.

The company filed the DJ.

usapa and/or the east has filed 3 lawsuits and every conceivable motion in the other two to delay the eventual outcome.
 
You don't have to come up with a solution that makes every West pilot happy...you just use the NIc.

You're right there, but in the last 5 years I've not seen that as a likely possibility, if not forced to. And so far, they have not been forced to.
 
http://www.kvoa.com/news/over-27k-arrested-for-dui-in-arizona-in-2011/

Hope that # didn't spike last eve 😉

FA
 
One lawsuit equates to no shortage in your mind?

Seriously folks, lets try to get the facts straight. The West has filed exactly one lawsuit.

The company filed the DJ.

usapa and/or the east has filed 3 lawsuits and every conceivable motion in the other two to delay the eventual outcome.

Again correct on the actual lawsuits filed, but that has always been the west answer, "Do anything but the Nic and we will sue you and the company!" And the Addington started the SLI litigation.

You said that the courts have never answered the question of whether one could ignore binding arbitration. I think they have and said yes. What we haven't been able to get an answer to is what will happen if they do it. Sees to me the answer is yes you can, but you have to have a good reason and the change has to be as fair as possible. And....nobody knows what that is until afterward.

I believe USAPA's lawyer wrote in his brief that the company doesn't have to agree with USAPA, they just have to negotiate. I guess we will see what they say.
 
This is the biggest problem involved.

No court to date has stepped up to the plate and answered the real question.

Does a union have the ability to renege on a binding arbitration?

I am guessing when one finally does, the answere will be a resounding...um NO.

Everybody keeps pointing to McCaskill/Bond and saying, well there arbitration is afforded by federal law if an agreement can't be reached. Well, so what? the usapa premise is that the majority at a union can simply disavow any arbitrated result by electing a new representational body.

PHX Declaratory Judgment Proposed Decision

Details
Created on Tuesday, 02 October 2012 20:20
Oral argument in the Phoenix Declaratory Judgment case was held earlier today (October 2, 2012) in Phoenix. Judge Silver distributed a proposed decision that, if it becomes final, will grant summary judgment to USAPA, holding that USAPA is free to pursue any seniority proposal, and need not advance the Nicolau award. The proposed decision is not appropriate for distribution until it becomes final because there may be changes.

The argument lasted for more than an hour and included counsel for US Airways, the West Pilot Class and USAPA. Counsel for US Airways and the West Pilot Class argued that the decision should be changed in various respects. Counsel for USAPA reiterated that USAPA was prepared to engage in serious, genuine discussions with the West Pilots over the seniority proposal, and was hopeful the parties would continue to work together to achieve a new comprehensive collective bargaining agreement. 

The argument was attended by more than 100 pilots including President Gary Hummel, Secretary-Treasurer Rob Streble and Executive Vice President Steve Smyser. President Hummel stated, “USAPA stands ready to negotiate a contract for all of our 5000 pilots, whether through a merger or otherwise. We are long overdue a contract that brings us up to par with our peers at other airlines such as Delta and United. Now that this obstacle has been removed, we will immediately petition the National Mediation Board to resume section 6 contract negotiations. 

The final Order and the transcript of the argument will be posted as soon as they become available.

USAPA Communications
 
Again correct on the actual lawsuits filed, but that has always been the west answer, "Do anything but the Nic and we will sue you and the company!" And the Addington started the SLI litigation.

You said that the courts have never answered the question of whether one could ignore binding arbitration. I think they have and said yes. What we haven't been able to get an answer to is what will happen if they do it. Sees to me the answer is yes you can, but you have to have a good reason and the change has to be as fair as possible. And....nobody knows what that is until afterward.

I believe USAPA's lawyer wrote in his brief that the company doesn't have to agree with USAPA, they just have to negotiate. I guess we will see what they say.

No, Addington did not "start the litigation"

The fact is the east filed the first lawsuit when the east MEC sued in federal court in Washington DC to vacate the Nic based on the argument that it fell so far outside industry standard that it should be ruled invalid. A complete loser lawsuit, because the Nic is not only far inside industry standard, it is fundamentally straight industry standard.

On your other point I totally disagree.

The courts have not green lighted reneging on arbitration. They have been very careful to completely avoid the "thorny question".

Once again, the 9th straight up told you, we are not answering that question, and you go and try to read all this other BS between the lines of their comments that straight up told you there are no implied between the lines here.
 
You're right there, but in the last 5 years I've not seen that as a likely possibility, if not forced to. And so far, they have not been forced to.

And it is quite obvious that no court is going to force it.

My prediction? 3 possibles....

1. USAPA screws the pooch and pushes for a unratifiable DOH list and we stay exactly where we are until attrition retires enough people that the demographic changes. At least 5 maybe 8 more years on current contracts....maybe even in the face of an AA merger. By then so much movement has happened that anything NIC related is unworkable even in the companies eyes...which I think that barrier has already been crossed.

2. USAPA sits down and comes up with a list that all can live with and get ratified, not DOH and not NIC. this far into it I firmly believe while there will be some holdouts the total number will be trivial overall. Some west guy will sue for sure, maybe even an east guy, but any suit will fail miserably in the face of the over whelming majority concensus for it. NIC will become a side note in airline history. This assumes the AA deal either falls through or take a few years to complete.

3. AA deal is annouced early or mid next year and it goes a 3 way from current snapshot. Somebody on the west will sue but again it will fail miserably since 2 courts have already said "no harm till ratified" and with AA in the mix, an agreement, and a ratification from membership from the courts point of view it will be 3 groups combined with no integration of anything from 2005 till 2013/14/15 whatever the AA final date is......the courts will not touch it since from their own stated view no group has been harmed in any way since nothing was ev er completed. Basically it will just be the longest merger in history thats all. This I think is the most likely scenario assuming Dougie can pull off the AA deal.

My final note is this though. Doug knows with a NIC removed from the mix nearly 100% of the resistance from the east is gone, if he can continue on good terms with the APA boys he has little resistance from them. After watching how Doug operates (follow the money) If option 3 is going full steam and the west is sueing left and right and trying to block the deal thru DFR's or whatever.....He WILL unload the west in a fire sale like you would not believe. No way he is going to let around 700 or so junior west guys keep him from being the CEO of one of the largest airlines out there. Follow the money. The friends on the west that I spoke to last night brought that point up to me, not I.
 
Again correct on the actual lawsuits filed, but that has always been the west answer, "Do anything but the Nic and we will sue you and the company!" And the Addington started the SLI litigation.

You said that the courts have never answered the question of whether one could ignore binding arbitration. I think they have and said yes. What we haven't been able to get an answer to is what will happen if they do it. Sees to me the answer is yes you can, but you have to have a good reason and the change has to be as fair as possible. And....nobody knows what that is until afterward.

I believe USAPA's lawyer wrote in his brief that the company doesn't have to agree with USAPA, they just have to negotiate. I guess we will see what they say.
I don't think the courts wanted to ignore the binding arbitration, they simply recognized the fact that it would never be able to be used operationally according to the signed Trans agreement and it was damaging to both sides.
 
Yeah, but LOS and DOH are two different things.

I think you could probably make any SLI "fair" with the right C&Rs, but can you get them right? Without a merger I see PHX shrinking. With DOH there is a bigger shift in relative position from west to east than there is from east to west with the Nic. How do you REALLY protect people? I don't have the answer, but think that if you don't and we get to DFR II, then there is trouble.

If I were a west pilot I would be worried that the east has had five years to figure out what went wrong in the first DFR case and fix it.

We're not worried about a DFR case. Should the company move off of the Nic they will be in breach of contract and that is much easier to litigate than a DFR. Parker knows this and that is why he requested the DJ. Now that the court has made it clear that he cannot hide behind them it is up to Parker to do the right thing, contractually. He already knows what he has to do, his attorneys certainly do, and we will see if he finally grows a spine.

If Parker can't lead this company out of this relatively minor debacle then he certainly is not capable of leading the largest airline in the world.
 
This is the biggest problem involved.

No court to date has stepped up to the plate and answered the real question.

Does a union have the ability to renege on a binding arbitration?

I am guessing when one finally does, the answere will be a resounding...um NO.

Everybody keeps pointing to McCaskill/Bond and saying, well there arbitration is afforded by federal law if an agreement can't be reached. Well, so what? the usapa premise is that the majority at a union can simply disavow any arbitrated result by electing a new representational body.

Nic, the court said USAPA was free to negotiate. That means the "binding" isn't binding. You are spinning your wheels. The Nic will NEVER be mentioned by USAPA again in seniority going forward. Never. You might as well erase Nicolau other than a reference to this dispute.
Mike Cleary. The East LCC pilots need to understand what a masterful job he did in leading this fight to where it has ended. And the Nic is clearly now a non issue. Cleary listened to Brian O Dwyer and went to Texas to meet to Ferguson. Cleary obviously did not want to go. It was a watershed event, and one that was missed totally by Ferguson and Leonidas Counsel. Abner Mikva, George Pataki and George Mitchell agreed to participate in this impasse between USAPA and Leonidas. This was clearly known as fact by Eric Ferguson, He REJECTED their involvement. Nicolau or nothing was the response from Ferguson. This was clearly documented and known by Judge Silver. Ferguson blew it right there. To not even begin to talk with those three esteemed statesmen, was an unbelievable disaster for Leonidas. Judge Silver knew this, and it must have been enlightening to her to see the non participation of Leonidas in a resolution of conflict. Abner Mikva was chief counsel for President Clinton when he appointed the Honorable Judge Roslyn Silver to the Arizona Court. His selection was no fluke.
This court event in Arizona was a watershed event, and there is no way the West posters can undermine this. They still do not even understand this case, and NEVER have from day one and the Wake Circus was the beginning of the misunderstanding.
If you are LCC East, you are free from the Nicolau. Judge Silver clearly said that. Mike Cleary did a fantastic job listening to O'Dwyer. and he deserves all the credit for Judge Silver being educated and informed about the intransigance of Leonidas. Judge Silver must have been astonished at the arrogance of Ferguson upon hearing his unwillingness to even begin to discuss the dispute with such statesmen, ESPECIALLY Mikva.
The West pilots totally underestimated Mike Cleary, as did many, many East pilots. Without his work, this outcome might possibly have been totally different. The West pilots who saw Cleary thought he was going to see APA pilots about a merger. That attempt by Cleary to negotiate a settlement was unbelievably saavy. His attempt and rebuff set the stage for the showdown in Arizona. Judge Silver was well aware of the lengths Cleary went to resolve this prior to any court event.
I am sure the West is going to keep the fight going, but it is going to end up the same way. Someone needs to come up with a different plan there, or it is going to be the same, expensive outcome.
 
A U.S. Representative, Federal Judge, and law professor; the three time governor of New York; and the former Senate Majority Leader of the U.S. Senate... Did any of them provide friendly notes of condolence to Ferrgy yet?
 
ALPA did not administer our arbitration.

ALPA has no control over the laws governing binding arbitration.

There are no laws in arbitration of this sort. This is a seniority proposal within a labor organization. Only Federal arbitrations are governed with laws.
 
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