August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Claxon]

“In the US Airways – America West case, it went to binding arbitration but there was a requirement as part of that that the two unions negotiate a joint contract with the company, which wasn’t done yet. And because it wasn’t done yet, the side that didn’t like it could prevent a joint contract from getting done. And because of that, the seniority integration never happened."

Scott Kirby

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/05/kirby-we-expect-an-amr-us-airw.html/

 

[nic4us]

USAPA has no friends in management unless management needs something. Just another west baseless allegation. You feeling good about your "win?" Maybe he will take a few westies with him.

Care to explain to me how in 2008 we needed to furlough 10% of the West and only 3% of the east during the exact same time period in which the company was found to be in violation of the TA for moving West flying east and breaking below West min block hours?

Or, maybe you can explain why a senior manager leaked confidential West A330 negotiations data to usapa.

Oh, and there is always the overwhelmingly lopsided use of section 19 hearings against West pilots when compared to their east counterparts. Which is simply amazing since the east guy basically has to shoot or bend an airplane to get to that hearing and still get his job back, but all a West pilot has to do is miss a usapa extortion payment.

 

[traderjake]

Amen. Maybe we could negotiate sending Traitor over to his pals.

My pals at American who want slotting by equipment and status?

 

[Pi brat]

Care to explain to me how in 2008 we needed to furlough 10% of the West and only 3% of the east during the exact same time period in which the company was found to be in violation of the TA for moving West flying east and breaking below West min block hours?

Or, maybe you can explain why a senior manager leaked confidential West A330 negotiations data to usapa.

Oh, and there is always the overwhelmingly lopsided use of section 19 hearings against West pilots when compared to their east counterparts. Which is simply amazing since the east guy basically has to shoot or bend an airplane to get to that hearing and still get his job back, but all a West pilot has to do is miss a usapa extortion payment.

Westie east sympathizers. The whole world is out to get you, isn't it?

How are those damages calculations coming?

 

[nic4us]

Which is it, status quo or nullity? Can't have both, even though you really, really deserve it.

Read the MOU, the TA and prior contracts and the status quo there under, are superseded by the MOU.

No question, the TA goes away at POR, and the MOU rules the day.

Completed CONTRACT...for those who need an amendable date it can be found in AMR green book....

What the east posters always fail to realize is there is no ratification requirement in the TA for the Nic. There is no vote on binding arbitration. It is done, the Nic is the only accepted system seniority list at LCC governing the integration of AWA and AAA pilots. There is no alternative list..listS...or separate listings.

The MOU clearly defines the integration of the LCC pilots with the AMr pilots via MB. Not MB esque, not MB similar....but that the SLI will be done by the "MB process". That is completely separate from the integration of the east and West. Our process was completed in 2007, we have one list and MB forbids it's use for mergers prior to it's inception.

 

[Claxon]

Read the MOU, the TA and prior contracts and the status quo there under, are superseded by the MOU.

No question, the TA goes away at POR, and the MOU rules the day.

Completed CONTRACT...for those who need an amendable date it can be found in AMR green book....

What the east posters always fail to realize is there is no ratification requirement in the TA for the Nic. There is no vote on binding arbitration. It is done, the Nic is the only accepted system seniority list at LCC governing the integration of AWA and AAA pilots. There is no alternative list..listS...or separate listings.

The MOU clearly defines the integration of the LCC pilots with the AMr pilots via MB. Not MB esque, not MB similar....but that the SLI will be done by the "MB process". That is completely separate from the integration of the east and West. Our process was completed in 2007, we have one list and MB forbids it's use for mergers prior to it's inception.

Typical Nic4 spiel. All over the place. Read the statement I posted from your president.
"NO"
He said nothing about any green book. He said your union, USAPA and APA will go through a process.

 

[nic4us]

“In the US Airways – America West case, it went to binding arbitration but there was a requirement as part of that that the two unions negotiate a joint contract with the company, which wasn’t done yet. And because it wasn’t done yet, the side that didn’t like it could prevent a joint contract from getting done. And because of that, the seniority integration never happened."

Scott Kirby

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/05/kirby-we-expect-an-amr-us-airw.html/

The requirement of a JCBA was to implement the results of the SLI process, not validate it.

Also, that implementation requirement was for the AWA/AAA merger and operation of LCC, not any future unforeseen merger which might arrive at a later date.

Simply put, there is only one combined list for all LCC pilots.

So, how did that "we can trade a cost neutral contract for labor peace and a DOH seniority list" strategy work out? Simple, it got the east a windfall of a 9 year fence all the growth and prosperity of the merger and LOA 93 for an entire decade.

It is just about over now. If the current merger goes through, the Nic will be integrated with the APAs list, and we will continue to be one big dysfunctional family.

 

[Pi brat]

Read the MOU, the TA and prior contracts and the status quo there under, are superseded by the MOU.

No question, the TA goes away at POR, and the MOU rules the day.

Completed CONTRACT...for those who need an amendable date it can be found in AMR green book....

What the east posters always fail to realize is there is no ratification requirement in the TA for the Nic. There is no vote on binding arbitration. It is done, the Nic is the only accepted system seniority list at LCC governing the integration of AWA and AAA pilots. There is no alternative list..listS...or separate listings.

The MOU clearly defines the integration of the LCC pilots with the AMr pilots via MB. Not MB esque, not MB similar....but that the SLI will be done by the "MB process". That is completely separate from the integration of the east and West. Our process was completed in 2007, we have one list and MB forbids it's use for mergers prior to it's inception.

It think you are doing what you and many west posters have gotten really good at and that is taking a small fact and turning into something that is not there. My theory is that you guys get on the AWAPPA boards, throw around and idea and since there a few dissenting opinions it becomes fact. My theory.

You are correct that the TA didn't provide for a vote on the SLI. What it did do was provide for a series of events to occur before it could ever be used. ONE OF THOSE NEVER HAPPENED, and put us at a stalemate.

You believe that the MOU finishes the TA. I believe it recognizes that it was impossible to finish and came up with a process to move on. The MOU specially says that we will use 3 lists and the only way we will change them is through a MB type process. I posted that for you yesterday.

Now, your psuedo union AOL says it's illegal. Judge Silver may agree and strike that part of the MOU or order the Nic to be implemented. I have no idea and after reading the last transcript nothing she rules would surprise me.

But one fact is clear. You guys don't have a very good track record on predictions.

 

[nic4us]

Typical Nic4 spiel. All over the place. Read the statement I posted from your president.
"NO"
He said nothing about any green book. He said your union, USAPA and APA will go through a process.

No, Kirby said all parties will get a place at the SLI table. that was when the company thought they could get to MB in a three way process. The idea of a three way might still be proffered, but the mere fact that the West would be at the table is in direct conflict of uscaba's DFR to the West and puts the entire process in question.

 

[3dtv]

The requirement of a JCBA was to implement the results of the SLI process, not validate it.

Also, that implementation requirement was for the AWA/AAA merger and operation of LCC, not any future unforeseen merger which might arrive at a later date.

Simply put, there is only one combined list for all LCC pilots.

So, how did that "we can trade a cost neutral contract for labor peace and a DOH seniority list" strategy work out? Simple, it got the east a windfall of a 9 year fence all the growth and prosperity of the merger and LOA 93 for an entire decade.

It is just about over now. If the current merger goes through, the Nic will be integrated with the APAs list, and we will continue to be one big dysfunctional family.

WRONG.

"And because of that, the seniority integration never happened."

Scott Kirby

 

[nic4us]

It think you are doing what you and many west posters have gotten really good at and that is taking a small fact and turning into something that is not there. My theory is that you guys get on the AWAPPA boards, throw around and idea and since there a few dissenting opinions it becomes fact. My theory.

You are correct that the TA didn't provide for a vote on the SLI. What it did do was provide for a series of events to occur before it could ever be used. ONE OF THOSE NEVER HAPPENED, and put us at a stalemate.

You believe that the MOU finishes the TA. I believe it recognizes that it was impossible to finish and came up with a process to move on. The MOU specially says that we will use 3 lists and the only way we will change them is through a MB type process. I posted that for you yesterday.

Now, your psuedo union AOL says it's illegal. Judge Silver may agree and strike that part of the MOU or order the Nic to be implemented. I have no idea and after reading the last transcript nothing she rules would surprise me.

But one fact is clear. You guys don't have a very good track record on predictions.

The MOU does not say we will use three list. The MOU says it does not change the ListS in effect.

further, the MOU says MB...not similar to MB. "Consistent with MB" means MB, and every sub paragraph specifically say via MB by stating "resulting from the MB process". MB is federal law, and will be followed in this integration, the MOU simply confirms that.

I do not believe the MOU finishes the TA, the MOU replaces the TA. That does not change the fact that the only accepted system seniority list for a merged LCC is the Nic. Whether the Nic was never "implemented" at LCC is irrelevant to the fact that LCC is one company merging with AMR.

What usapa forced is separate ops, not separate companies. Not using the Nic places the next SLI, the APA, and the New American on "dangerous ground".

My predictions are actually pretty good, so here is one for you. Parker and the companies wills remain "neutral, the APA will tell us to get our shite together, or they will get it together for us. It all boils down to using the Nic.

 

[nic4us]

WRONG.

"And because of that, the seniority integration never happened."

Scott Kirby

Kirby misspoke, the integration happened, the implementation never happened.

 

[Pi brat]

Kirby misspoke, the integration happened, the implementation never happened.

No he didn't. He said the "seniority intergration" didn't happen, and it didn't. The seniority LIST integration happened.

 

[Pi brat]

The MOU does not say we will use three list. The MOU says it does not change the ListS in effect.

further, the MOU says MB...not similar to MB. "Consistent with MB" means MB, and every sub paragraph specifically say via MB by stating "resulting from the MB process". MB is federal law, and will be followed in this integration, the MOU simply confirms that.

I do not believe the MOU finishes the TA, the MOU replaces the TA. That does not change the fact that the only accepted system seniority list for a merged LCC is the Nic. Whether the Nic was never "implemented" at LCC is irrelevant to the fact that LCC is one company merging with AMR.

What usapa forced is separate ops, not separate companies. Not using the Nic places the next SLI, the APA, and the New American on "dangerous ground".

My predictions are actually pretty good, so here is one for you. Parker and the companies wills remain "neutral, the APA will tell us to get our shite together, or they will get it together for us. It all boils down to using the Nic.

That's right, the listS in effect except by section 10. The Nic and TA are not in section 10.

If it means MB, why add the consistent? I read it to be kind of like my divorce. We lived in NC and were governed by NC laws, but we AGREED to something consistent with other laws. Since we agreed to something else, and it didn't break a NC law, it was granted by a judge. I think for you to use the Nic you are going to have to have a judge order it. I don't think Parker will do it. We'll see.

We have not been and never will be merged at US.

Answer me this. One of the main rallying calls from the west was that the east reneged on a previously agreed upon process. I had some sympathy for that argument. Why isn't it the same for the west now? A member of AOL helped write the MOU, their attorneys recommended that the west pilots vote for it, they did and then promptly sued saying it was illegal. What's the difference?

 

[cleardirect]

Wow... if only that were true today, we all could have saved millions and a lot less annoyances!

If only US Airways had closed the doors like you were going to we would have had a lot less annoyances. If only you easties were trustworthy and lived up to your word we all would have a lot less annoyances.