August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[prechilill]

Anyone else scratching their head over this recent 'limited objection' filed by USAPA? For years the union has been bemoaning the ravages brought about by the regionals and now they are concerned about the American Eagle pilots? To add insult to injury, the union shows no interest or concern about our own regionals and wholly owned. WTF, over? No disrespect or ill will intended for the AA Eagle group, but let them fend for themselves. We may finally see Wolf's prediction from 15 years ago, regarding more airplanes than God can count, come true. Only it won't be ABs, it will be 190s. So let our guys fly those routes and keep them on mainline.

USAPA, which I have supported from day one, will soon cease to exist and this recent action reminds me of the petulant child that makes a mess before he exits the room.

A union needs to know its limitations and this one needs to exit the scene with a little more grace and class. Is that too much to ask?

You've always been the most open minded of the eastie regulars, your post above proves it.

 

[prechilill]

It's fun watching the death of Usapa... A lot of fun!
What stupid move will they do next? Which judge will they piss off the most? Hmmm. I'd say it is totally unpredictable because usapa is driven by nut cases. We get a glimpse of that on here, from each airline and each seat.
Another question- and this is serious- Is Borman going to eat himself to death after the Nic gets shoved down his big, stinky, Perio diseased mouth? How will Pizza the Hut deal with his grief? CRIP?

 

[cleardirect]

Anyone else scratching their head over this recent 'limited objection' filed by USAPA? For years the union has been bemoaning the ravages brought about by the regionals and now they are concerned about the American Eagle pilots? To add insult to injury, the union shows no interest or concern about our own regionals and wholly owned. WTF, over? No disrespect or ill will intended for the AA Eagle group, but let them fend for themselves. We may finally see Wolf's prediction from 15 years ago, regarding more airplanes than God can count, come true. Only it won't be ABs, it will be 190s. So let our guys fly those routes and keep them on mainline.

USAPA, which I have supported from day one, will soon cease to exist and this recent action reminds me of the petulant child that makes a mess before he exits the room.

A union needs to know its limitations and this one needs to exit the scene with a little more grace and class. Is that too much to ask?

Why would usapa change their actions now?

They have been had no class or grace from day one. Stomping their feet, making a mess and demanding things is all they have done for 5 years.

 

[cleardirect]

Didn't know the company lawyers told Judges how to decide?!?!? They are simply looking for the quickest easiest way out, no matter what...

How do you think courts work?

Lawyers tell the judge what they want and how to decide, that is what all the filings are about. making your case and asking the judge to pick your side. Has usapa not told the judge to dismiss the case? She just did not buy the argument.

You guys complained the during the arbitration Nicolau was not given enough options. Well the company is telling the judge how to decide the case. Just a matter of her buying the argument.

What is the quickest, easiest cleanest least costly way out of this? Use an arbitrated list that the judge has already said in her order that is a fair result of a neutral process? Or dismiss the case and make all the parties create some unknown process and negotiate or arbitrate a list that will be challenged again if the unknown process yields something unfair? Company told the judge M/B can't be used for the east west integration.

EVERYONE except maybe east pilots wants this dispute ended finally. Dragging it out is not an option. Read the company filing. Separate ops is no longer viable for the company. They also were clear that it is a merger between US Airways and American. Not east west and American.

 

[cleardirect]

Sure, Clear......those voices are really spinning in your head theses days, eh? You should take a break....your starting to hallucinate and you've been calling people names a lot lately. The last time I was on here, you called me stupid and a moron in 2 different posts within 4 minutes. Like this commercial says, "There's no club, you moron".

It is really hard not to call you names when you post stuff like the190 are moving to PHX.

You have no facts to backup that claim. In fact the facts prove just the opposite of what you said. It gets exhausting trying to correct continually incorrect theories from you guys.

You said I was hallucinating about what the company wrote. Ok, did you not see the big hints and the clear direction the company is giving the court? Let me help you.



But US Airways still has a strong and
continuing interest in ensuring that the remaining proceedings before this Court are
conducted in a manner that promotes a prompt resolution of the merits of the West Pilots’
claims


Does dismissing the case resolve the dispute? Does issuing an injunction resolve the case for the company?


How about this?


As noted in Section I.A, supra, the plaintiffs’ claims against
USAPA implicate how the parties may proceed, and, as a result, a failure to promptly
resolve the merits of those claims or a resolution that results in additional legal challenges
would threaten to disrupt and delay the process of integrating US Airways and American
pilots.



If this case is dismissed the west will once again file a DFR. That results in additional legal challenges. An injunction will draw an appeal but that will not be heard until after usapa is gone so nothing to worry about. An injunction gives the parties a direction and path to combining the airlines. A dismissal gives no direction and only delay.

 

[cleardirect]

Easties. Did you read the update about the BPR confrere nice call?

So nice of the officers to inform the BPR the supposed leaders of this union less than 24 hours before they file that dumb ass filing in the NY BK court. I thought the BPR and ultimately the pilots were supposed to lead this union not be informed of what has already been decided.

When was the decision and vote to even explore filing in NY by the BPR?

Sounds a lot like ALPA. The officers out on their own without oversight spending money with no goal in mind.

 

[mrbreeze]

It is really hard not to call you names when you post stuff like the190 are moving to PHX.

You have no facts to backup that claim. In fact the facts prove just the opposite of what you said. It gets exhausting trying to correct continually incorrect theories from you guys.

Thanks for proving my point that you need to take a break. I have NEVER made any statement about E190s going to PHX. Get a grip, son!

 

[cleardirect]

Thanks for proving my point that you need to take a break. I have NEVER made any statement about E190s going to PHX. Get a grip, son!

You are correct. My mistake. You were making a point about the west contract and not being able to negotiate. Still you had you facts wrong.

We're you told about the loa concerning the 330 that the west did negotiate?

You implied that the west was unable to negotiate. It is usapa that has had that responsibility for the last 5 years and has failed miserably.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Sounds a lot like ALPA. The officers out on their own without oversight spending money with no goal in mind.

Finally, something sensible from you that I can agree with.

 

[nevergiveup]

How do you think courts work?

Lawyers tell the judge what they want and how to decide, that is what all the filings are about. making your case and asking the judge to pick your side. Has usapa not told the judge to dismiss the case? She just did not buy the argument.

You guys complained the during the arbitration Nicolau was not given enough options. Well the company is telling the judge how to decide the case. Just a matter of her buying the argument.

What is the quickest, easiest cleanest least costly way out of this? Use an arbitrated list that the judge has already said in her order that is a fair result of a neutral process? Or dismiss the case and make all the parties create some unknown process and negotiate or arbitrate a list that will be challenged again if the unknown process yields something unfair? Company told the judge M/B can't be used for the east west integration.

EVERYONE except maybe east pilots wants this dispute ended finally. Dragging it out is not an option. Read the company filing. Separate ops is no longer viable for the company. They also were clear that it is a merger between US Airways and American. Not east west and American.

Notice in the company's filing that they use the term US Airways pilots, east and west.

 

[cleardirect]

Notice in the company's filing that they use the term US Airways pilots, east and west.

a failure to promptly resolve the merits of these claims would threaten
to disrupt and delay the process of integrating US Airways and American pilots following
the merger.


a failure to promptly resolve the merits of these claims would threaten to disrupt
and delay the process of integrating US Airways and American pilots following the
merger – a process that is central to the airline’s realization of the operational and
financial benefits from the combined pilot workforce that is contemplated by the MOU
and the merger.


Plaintiffs have made clear their desire to obtain a prompt adjudication of the merits
of their claims against USAPA, so that there is no interference with the process for the
US Airways/American pilots seniority integration.


US Airways has
always been and still is neutral regarding the merits of the underlying DFR claim between
USAPA and the West Pilots. US Airways’ only interest is in ensuring that the seniority
dispute is promptly resolved in a manner that will allow both pilot groups and the airline
to move forward with the merger and the seniority integration with American’s pilots.



What do all of these statements from the company have in common? They all talk about the integration between US Airways pilots and American pilots. Nothing to do with east west. They also all talk about resolving the dispute BEFORE the US Airways/American integration.

The company knows there will not be a three way, three list M/B integration like usapa is telling you. This next paragraph is also informative.


, known as “McCaskill-Bond.” This federal statute, which was
enacted in 2007 and thus was unavailable to resolve the US Airways/America West pilots
seniority dispute, mandates, inter alia, that seniority integration of airline employees
following the combination of two or more airlines shall occur in a “fair and equitable
manner.”


The M/B law was not and is not available to resolve the dispute between east and west. Our merger took place before 2007 and the M/B law specifically says it can't be used for merger that took place prior to 2007.

So what fair and equitable process does usapa propose to integrate east and west outside of M/B if you are not going to use the Nicolau and you have an LUP?

Every party involved including judge Lane except usapa has said that the east west dispute has to be resolved before the US Airways/American integration can happen.

Do you think the company wants this case dismissed leaving it open? Do you think the company want usapa to win so they can spend who knows how long negotiating an east west seniority list delaying getting to the real seniority integration USA and American? Plus after the list is negotiated the west files another law suit challenging THAT list?

Read the company filing. They are telling the judge issue the injunction, use the Nicolau. Give the west a seat at the table and get to a M/B integration between USA and American so they can put the companies together. Anything else is delay and costly.

 

[Beancounter]

Anyone else scratching their head over this recent 'limited objection' filed by USAPA? For years the union has been bemoaning the ravages brought about by the regionals and now they are concerned about the American Eagle pilots? To add insult to injury, the union shows no interest or concern about our own regionals and wholly owned. WTF, over? No disrespect or ill will intended for the AA Eagle group, but let them fend for themselves. We may finally see Wolf's prediction from 15 years ago, regarding more airplanes than God can count, come true. Only it won't be ABs, it will be 190s. So let our guys fly those routes and keep them on mainline.

USAPA, which I have supported from day one, will soon cease to exist and this recent action reminds me of the petulant child that makes a mess before he exits the room.

A union needs to know its limitations and this one needs to exit the scene with a little more grace and class. Is that too much to ask?

My thoughts too. Well, except for the supporting USAPA from day one part. I had hoped they were improving though. What was I thinking??? Like you said, nothing against the Eagle pilots, but they have their own union. Why are we pissing in the punchbowl that we all drink out of? There must be some grand scheme I'm missing here, either that or people are fighting over the wheel at the helm and we're zig-zaging all over the place.

Oh, I guess I should add: Does USAPA realize there are Eagle pilots that feel because of their prior agreement with American they should get flow into American with their DOH from Eagle being used to place them ahead of OUR mainline pilots. I know USAPA loves DOH, but c'mon. They are NOT our friends right now. Who is representing me? Oh, that's right I'm a west pilot, I don't have representation. Rant/whine fest over.

Bean

 

[Beancounter]

a failure to promptly resolve the merits of these claims would threaten
to disrupt and delay the process of integrating US Airways and American pilots following
the merger.


a failure to promptly resolve the merits of these claims would threaten to disrupt
and delay the process of integrating US Airways and American pilots following the
merger – a process that is central to the airline’s realization of the operational and
financial benefits from the combined pilot workforce that is contemplated by the MOU
and the merger.


Plaintiffs have made clear their desire to obtain a prompt adjudication of the merits
of their claims against USAPA, so that there is no interference with the process for the
US Airways/American pilots seniority integration.


US Airways has
always been and still is neutral regarding the merits of the underlying DFR claim between
USAPA and the West Pilots. US Airways’ only interest is in ensuring that the seniority
dispute is promptly resolved in a manner that will allow both pilot groups and the airline
to move forward with the merger and the seniority integration with American’s pilots.



What do all of these statements from the company have in common? They all talk about the integration between US Airways pilots and American pilots. Nothing to do with east west. They also all talk about resolving the dispute BEFORE the US Airways/American integration.

The company knows there will not be a three way, three list M/B integration like usapa is telling you. This next paragraph is also informative.


, known as “McCaskill-Bond.” This federal statute, which was
enacted in 2007 and thus was unavailable to resolve the US Airways/America West pilots
seniority dispute, mandates, inter alia, that seniority integration of airline employees
following the combination of two or more airlines shall occur in a “fair and equitable
manner.”


The M/B law was not and is not available to resolve the dispute between east and west. Our merger took place before 2007 and the M/B law specifically says it can't be used for merger that took place prior to 2007.

So what fair and equitable process does usapa propose to integrate east and west outside of M/B if you are not going to use the Nicolau and you have an LUP?

Every party involved including judge Lane except usapa has said that the east west dispute has to be resolved before the US Airways/American integration can happen.

Do you think the company wants this case dismissed leaving it open? Do you think the company want usapa to win so they can spend who knows how long negotiating an east west seniority list delaying getting to the real seniority integration USA and American? Plus after the list is negotiated the west files another law suit challenging THAT list?

Read the company filing. They are telling the judge issue the injunction, use the Nicolau. Give the west a seat at the table and get to a M/B integration between USA and American so they can put the companies together. Anything else is delay and costly.

Hi ho, hi ho, it's off to arbitration we go

We went there once, it didn't work out

So back we go with the Nicalooooooo

Hi ho, hi ho, hi ho, hi ho



Sorry, I've been watching too many disney movies with the kids.

Bean

 

[Reed Richards]

Read the company filing. They are telling the judge issue the injunction, use the Nicolau. Give the west a seat at the table and get to a M/B integration between USA and American so they can put the companies together. Anything else is delay and costly.

Now I am really confused. Are you and/or the Company saying after you get the NIC, a combined list, you should still have a seat at the table? RR

 

[Beancounter]

Now I am really confused. Are you and/or the Company saying after you get the NIC, a combined list, you should still have a seat at the table? RR

I was wondering the same thing. It didn't stop me from writing a little song about it though 🙂

Bean