August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[CallawayGolf]

It might have, we'll never know, but I think I have some pretty good supporting background.

I think everyone forgets how bad the Kirby was, and that was before the great recession. Not just the pay rates, but the whole thing like NO raise for E190s. Then we would have been dickering while the recession hit and the company was hurting again. Parker always said he wouldn't pay us the same as UA/DL, and I believe him. Did you catch his statement after the last F/A rejection? He said that turning down a contract offer doesn't get it sweetened, just more time to think about it. We would have still been a fractured group with no power. So, the east pilots would have had to make an economic decision. Take the Kirby, warts and all with the Nic, or stay on LOA 93. I think the resounding failure of the Ferguson ticket gives some evidence that passing a Nic inclusive contract, absent a merger, would have been tough.

Again, who knows, but the FACT is that we are here because of our original agreement, one you guys didn't have any issue with until after the fact, the T/A.

Thanks for answering my question though. Better than Dave did.

I agree that it is speculative no matter what because that path was not chosen. Taking what you said about negotiations, the economy and Parker's firm stance when labor asks for more than can be supported financially seems to buttress my point also. If NIC+Kirby was rejected three times in a row with little to no change and no change in S22 and worsening economic conditions, how long would the east hold out with taking no raise at all vs. a raise with the known quantity of a 2:1 ratio integration of lists by a neutral arbitrator? The FAs voted 3 times and each time they got closer to ratification than the last as it was clear what was on the table and what would never be on the table.

 

[Claxon]

ALPA's Communications Department provides information and support for news media inquiries. An ALPA communications representative can be reached in the Herndon, Va. office at (703) 481-4440.

News Release​

February 22, 2002
Pilots to Host Union Conference on Job Outsourcing
PHOENIX — The four unions representing approximately 6,000 America West Airlines employees will meet Feb. 25 in Phoenix to discuss the effects increased outsourcing of flying to smaller affiliate airlines will have on their respective members’ careers.
The conference, hosted by the America West unit of the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA), will include representatives from the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Transport Workers Union and Association of Flight Attendants.
"We cannot sit idly by and watch while the growth of America West, growth made possible by the efforts and sacrifices of the employees, is outsourced to other carriers," said Captain Herb Holland, chairman of the America West ALPA unit. "We all want to see America West grow, but not at the expense of our own careers."
According to America West’s Seven Year Plan, which was submitted to the Air Transport Stabilization Board in December to support the airline’s federal loan guarantee application, outsourced flying performed on behalf of America West by other carriers will increase 100 percent from 2001 to 2008. During that same period, America West itself will increase flying by only 20 percent.
"With hundreds of our workers still on furlough, it’s disturbing to see America West management’s continued disregard for the job security concerns of the very people who have driven this airline’s success," Captain Holland said.
Including the 1,800 America West pilots, ALPA represents 64,000 pilots at 45 airlines in the United States and Canada.

 

[Pi brat]

I agree that it is speculative no matter what because that path was not chosen. Taking what you said about negotiations, the economy and Parker's firm stance when labor asks for more than can be supported financially seems to buttress my point also. If NIC+Kirby was rejected three times in a row with little to no change and no change in S22 and worsening economic conditions, how long would the east hold out with taking no raise at all vs. a raise with the known quantity of a 2:1 ratio integration of lists by a neutral arbitrator? The FAs voted 3 times and each time they got closer to ratification than the last as it was clear what was on the table and what would never be on the table.

But they didn't see their forward career progression decimated by a SLI, and when it finally passed they were being threatened with being parked by the NMB and no seat at the AA merger table. It still barely passed.

We will never know.

 

[Claxon]

My point, the west did not have great relations with awa management​

News Release​

April 4, 2002

America West Pilots to Conduct Informational Picketing in Tempe​

PHOENIX — Uniformed pilots of America West Airlines will conduct informational picketing at the airline’s headquarters in Tempe on Friday, April 5, to demand their management seriously address the key issues as they resume negotiations for a new contract.
Pilots will picket outside America West corporate headquarters, 111 W. Rio Salado Parkway, from 10 a.m. to noon.
"Despite the break in our negotiations, we want management to understand that we have not forgotten the sacrifices and investments the pilots have continuously made to help America West become the airline it is today," said Captain Herb Holland, chairman of the America West unit of the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA).
Negotiations with management, which began in February 2000 and were suspended after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, are currently being conducted under the direction of a federal mediator. The two parties have not yet begun discussing key economic issues including pay and retirement.
"Now that negotiations are resuming, we are committed to reaching a fair and equitable agreement with management as quickly as possible," Captain Holland said. "It remains to be seen if America West management will show the same willingness at the negotiating table."
Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world's oldest and largest pilot union representing more than 62,000 pilots at 42 airlines in the U.S. and Canada. Visit the ALPA website at http://www.alpa.org.

 

[CallawayGolf]

But they didn't see their forward career progression decimated by a SLI, and when it finally passed they were being threatened with being parked by the NMB and no seat at the AA merger table. It still barely passed.

We will never know.

Career progression wasn't decimated by the SLI. If it was indeed decimated that occurred prior to 9/27/2005. What the SLI didn't do was place furloughed pilots ahead of active pilots when the two lists were combined which is what DOH would have done.

 

[Claxon]

Career progression wasn't decimated by the SLI. If it was indeed decimated that occurred prior to 9/27/2005. What the SLI didn't do was place furloughed pilots ahead of active pilots when the two lists were combined which is what DOH would have done.

Who said DOH was the offer?

 

[Pi brat]

Career progression wasn't decimated by the SLI. If it was indeed decimated that occurred prior to 9/27/2005. What the SLI didn't do was place furloughed pilots ahead of active pilots when the two lists were combined which is what DOH would have done.

What do you call retiring at #450 vs. #3? #700 vs. #4?

I can assure you that the guys that happened to would use the word decimated.

 

[CallawayGolf]

What do you call retiring at #450 vs. #3? #700 vs. #4?

Better than the alternative option of not merging and facing certain liquidation.

 

[Pi brat]

Better than the alternative option of not merging and facing certain liquidation.

That was out of our hands and never happened, did it?

 

[Pi brat]

But again you deflect CG.

 

[Claxon]

Better than the alternative option of not merging and facing certain liquidation.

Do you have proof of this.

 

[Claxon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHUx5rdXM0Q

 

[CallawayGolf]

That was out of our hands and never happened, did it?

No it didn't specifically and only because of the merger. That merger had effects on all people who worked for the two former airlines. The effect on the pilots was that the pilots needed to be integrated according to the CBA/TA and according to ALPA policy. You had no control over the Management decisions of the former US Airways, no control over the results of binding arbitration, no control over the RLA that requires CBAs to fairly represent all constituents rather than just the majority. And if US had liquidated you would have no control over that either and you might have an entirely different definition of having a decimated career.

 

[Claxon]

History will not be kind to the west pilots, your fault.

 

[snapthis]

Streble’s work for almost the entire first year was as a volunteer, and it is quite possible his daughter opened that letter. I simply don’t remember. Rob managed the Kannapolis POB for a long time, and was personally acquainted with the Postmaster, and some of the Inspectors. There were two letters with feces, and one definitely came from a particularly disgusting West pilot. I do NOT think that pilot represented of any of us, East or West. But it did happen. What really was the bad thing was not the feces, but the ones with small rocks. The Postal Inspector was very upset, but thankfully did not have to act. The danger was the sorting machines could have thrown the rocks and hurt someone.I won’t post the transcript again, but although the actions did not meet RICO, the court did not discount the seriousness of them. Spin it like you want, these were as…oles pure and simple that committed these acts, the worst being (in my opinion) the simpletons that called the safety hotline with prank calls. What if they had tied up the Safety line when Sully went down?This might be something we can discuss at El Azteca, but I would prefer the conversation be about “all things me,” women, and flying. Your call.Greeter

When we sit down for lunch sometime in the future, it's not a subject I care to discuss. I've never spoke with any of our pilots who admitted to such acts, therefore I have to take the info you all post and see if it adds up. I wish they would have found the individual who did it, if true, I can't defend such actions.