August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[snapthis]

The word "niggardly" means "cheap, miserly, parsimonious, stingy."

What was the problem? Was the other pilot actually generous? Is that why he was offended?

Oh...

Did he skip out on a bar tab at one of the ALPA meetings?

 

[Phoenix]

Oh...

Did he skip out on a bar tab at one of the ALPA meetings?

Still trying to be funny about calling people racists... Where the hell is UHaul when you need a moderate?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Oh...

Did he skip out on a bar tab at one of the ALPA meetings?

No Facts TRU WEST FORM!

 

[mrbreeze]

Obviously, niggardly and scab are ugly words. Maybe, since someday we will be under one seniority list, we should watch our tongues, Nic4us. I mean, it doesn't have any positive result, eh? breeze

 

[Claxon]

One of your East reps addressed one of our ALPA reps who happens to African American as Nig-ard-ly. Well there was a Stars and Bars slip-up if I have ever seen one.

It makes me wonder what goes on in some of your meetings down there in Charlotte.

Probably something like this...

http://www.youtubeskip.com/watch?v=YRdQIuvZvLs

This guy is the biggest purveyor of BS yet.
Ranks close to Move2CLT
Rivals Cleardirect.
Clear? Come in please......

 

[Claxon]

So ALPA forced United to abide by original seniority order, what's your point?

ALPA had a LUP, USAPA does not.

How many of the last 6 pilot seniority integrations went LOS?

None, and when given consideration category and status was determined to be twice as important.

The United A scale pilots sold you out, RR.

United called me 4 times during the strike and I never returned a single call, does that make me a better union pilot than you?

ALPA LUP- position Airways for merger domination, via continual modification of merger policy. Provide no support to USAirways pilots during bankruptcy, in hopes DAL would grow stronger with U's demise. Then re do merger policy with pilot neutrals in U-AWA merger taking completely different merger stances to suit themselves, again. That is quite the LUP.

 

[EastUS1]

This guy is the biggest purveyor of BS yet.
Ranks close to Move2CLT

Not so. To snap's credit; he's yet to "threaten" me with any XBox "combat". 😉 I suspect snap's not a worthless and rancid character as a person, unlike Move2CLT.

 

[Black Swan]

One of your East reps addressed one of our ALPA reps who happens to African American as Nig-ard-ly. Well there was a Stars and Bars slip-up if I have ever seen one.

It makes me wonder what goes on in some of your meetings down there in Charlotte.

Probably something like this...

http://www.youtubeskip.com/watch?v=YRdQIuvZvLs

That is true, and the guy who did it is an idiot for going there. It was not a mistake I am afraid. He should have been removed right then and there.

 

[Reed Richards]

So ALPA forced United to abide by original seniority order, what's your point?

ALPA had a LUP, USAPA does not.

How many of the last 6 pilot seniority integrations went LOS?

None, and when given consideration category and status was determined to be twice as important.

The United A scale pilots sold you out, RR.

United called me 4 times during the strike and I never returned a single call, does that make me a better union pilot than you?

Trader, I never meant anything about either of us being "better union pilots" in reference to our UAL experiences. I am simply telling certain assh...s that I will no longer accept the casual use of the word Scab when it is directed at me personally here. I consider it one of the worst things I can be called, equal in my mind to a racial or religious slur. I am going to start ratcheting up my responses to being called that, until either the moderators take action against those using it, or I am kicked off for the intensity of my replies.
I will say to everyone else it was a very difficult time to be searching for an airline job. None of us wanted to do the wrong thing. All I had to go on was letters from ALPA telling me what to do and my friends in the AF Reserve, a few who were UAL pilots or furloughs, many who were EAL, PI, and a few US Air. There was no internet to link in to everyone else, much less to ALPA or the UAL guys.
Trader was in an especially confusing time. ALPA told us to GO TO TRAINING and get qualified. Then on the day of the strike told everyone to stand down on all activities, even interviews. I have no doubt you were called, UAL had a large unit in place trying to staff the airline, and were counting on confusion to get guys to show up, even if it was just for an interview. Other than the real scabs that crossed, and the hired guns that made themselves available, common sense ruled. You obviously did the right thing, sad if it did cost you a job later. I was indeed offered my job back in December of 1985, but chose to stay at US Air because I was A scale. A simple A or B decision I will always question, but would do the same thing with the info I had. I initially was mad at the UAL pilots for not fixing our problems in the back to work agreement, but in hindsight ALPA fixed their wrongs, with over 6 years of effort. Add to that the UAL guys were the only ones that actually went on strike with the B scale as one of their issues. Everyone else rolled over. All the majors. Here is a good link to the original case that ALPA lost in Federal court. It’s a great read, you will see most of our issues here gone over. http://www.leagle.com/decision/19911239765FSupp474_11156
Deep in the document I linked is an excellent discussion of how seniority lives in the contract. Also, here is an excerpt that I like to point out when folks talk about final and binding:

“47. Left with no alternative, ALPA acquiesced. Thus, on April 3, 1987, United and ALPA executed the 1987 letter of agreement setting forth the following terms:

a. United agreed to immediately extend employment offers to each member of the 570 for a pilot's position. United Ex. 527 ¶ 1.

b. United would adjust the seniority date of each member of the group of 570 from May 17, 1985 to November 9, 1985, the actual recall date of the first member of the 570. Id. ¶ 2.

c. ALPA agreed that the seniority dates and numbers assigned to the 570 would be final. In particular, ALPA agreed that:

it will never seek to challenge [United]'s action in that regard in court or before an arbitrator, nor will it seek to raise the issue of the "Group of 570" relative seniority position as part of any future negotiations between [United] and [ALPA] regarding any subject whatsoever.”

But they DID raise the issue again, again, and again. And eventually, as you will read in the link, put all the 570 where they belonged. You can do your own Google and find the Appeal (lost) and eventually the trip to SCOTUS where ALPA won. Doing the right thing is doing the right thing. I will praise the ALPA of old as doing just that. No matter what they signed, no matter how many times they lost in court, they went forward and fixed a wrong. RR

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

After reading the "WRIT" long , long overdue is actually hilarious, to the factual observer, but actually don't they know DUI DOUG is on a strict timeline?

 

[mrbreeze]

Trader, I never meant anything about either of us being "better union pilots" in reference to our UAL experiences. I am simply telling certain assh...s that I will no longer accept the casual use of the word Scab when it is directed at me personally here. I consider it one of the worst things I can be called, equal in my mind to a racial or religious slur. I am going to start ratcheting up my responses to being called that, until either the moderators take action against those using it, or I am kicked off for the intensity of my replies.
I will say to everyone else it was a very difficult time to be searching for an airline job. None of us wanted to do the wrong thing. All I had to go on was letters from ALPA telling me what to do and my friends in the AF Reserve, a few who were UAL pilots or furloughs, many who were EAL, PI, and a few US Air. There was no internet to link in to everyone else, much less to ALPA or the UAL guys.
Trader was in an especially confusing time. ALPA told us to GO TO TRAINING and get qualified. Then on the day of the strike told everyone to stand down on all activities, even interviews. I have no doubt you were called, UAL had a large unit in place trying to staff the airline, and were counting on confusion to get guys to show up, even if it was just for an interview. Other than the real scabs that crossed, and the hired guns that made themselves available, common sense ruled. You obviously did the right thing, sad if it did cost you a job later. I was indeed offered my job back in December of 1985, but chose to stay at US Air because I was A scale. A simple A or B decision I will always question, but would do the same thing with the info I had. I initially was mad at the UAL pilots for not fixing our problems in the back to work agreement, but in hindsight ALPA fixed their wrongs, with over 6 years of effort. Add to that the UAL guys were the only ones that actually went on strike with the B scale as one of their issues. Everyone else rolled over. All the majors. Here is a good link to the original case that ALPA lost in Federal court. It’s a great read, you will see most of our issues here gone over. http://www.leagle.com/decision/19911239765FSupp474_11156
Deep in the document I linked is an excellent discussion of how seniority lives in the contract. Also, here is an excerpt that I like to point out when folks talk about final and binding:

“47. Left with no alternative, ALPA acquiesced. Thus, on April 3, 1987, United and ALPA executed the 1987 letter of agreement setting forth the following terms:

a. United agreed to immediately extend employment offers to each member of the 570 for a pilot's position. United Ex. 527 ¶ 1.

b. United would adjust the seniority date of each member of the group of 570 from May 17, 1985 to November 9, 1985, the actual recall date of the first member of the 570. Id. ¶ 2.

c. ALPA agreed that the seniority dates and numbers assigned to the 570 would be final. In particular, ALPA agreed that:

it will never seek to challenge [United]'s action in that regard in court or before an arbitrator, nor will it seek to raise the issue of the "Group of 570" relative seniority position as part of any future negotiations between [United] and [ALPA] regarding any subject whatsoever.”

But they DID raise the issue again, again, and again. And eventually, as you will read in the link, put all the 570 where they belonged. You can do your own Google and find the Appeal (lost) and eventually the trip to SCOTUS where ALPA won. Doing the right thing is doing the right thing. I will praise the ALPA of old as doing just that. No matter what they signed, no matter how many times they lost in court, they went forward and fixed a wrong. RR

A good testimony to just how screwed ALPA was and how their political agenda changed with the times. Unfortunately, it got so screwed up that it took our current situation to break the mold. And people think that ALPA had a LUP.....BS!

 

[Phoenix]

ALPA LUP- position Airways for merger domination, via continual modification of merger policy. Provide no support to USAirways pilots during bankruptcy, in hopes DAL would grow stronger with U's demise. Then re do merger policy with pilot neutrals in U-AWA merger taking completely different merger stances to suit themselves, again. That is quite the LUP.

ALPA is safe because an LUP is never required. Those poor shmucks forced to sue ALPA actually have to carry the burden of proof, as a plaintiff, proving that ALPA acted outside a wide rage of reasonableness, the SCOTUS threshold.

The notion of a LUP is only applicable to the extent or degree that a defendant must prove its innocence. Too bad it wasn't easier to spank ALPA in the courts for their many abuses!

 

[Phoenix]

Obviously, niggardly and scab are ugly words. Maybe, since someday we will be under one seniority list, we should watch our tongues, Nic4us. I mean, it doesn't have any positive result, eh? breeze

Word

 

[Reed Richards]

Not so. To snap's credit; he's yet to "threaten" me with any XBox "combat". 😉 I suspect snap's not a worthless and rancid character as a person, unlike Move2CLT.

I don’t think Snap has called us scabs, but his has made light of our accidents. Pretty rancid in my opinion, especially considering some us lost family and coworkers on said incidents. I would accept a straight apology from Snap right now on that single issue. Were he to do so I would never bring it up again in regard to him personally. RR

 

[snapthis]

That is true, and the guy who did it is an idiot for going there. It was not a mistake I am afraid. He should have been removed right then and there.

You get it. Stupid move but RB did not pursue it with HR.