AWA ALPA Thread for the Week 9/14-9/20

[Richard]

Here is the new thread for AWA ALPA.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

I was in the middle of replying to hp_fa and others on the other thread until Richard locked it.

Anyway, here's what I wrote:


You guys aren't getting it. The AWA pilots will have to prove damages by the award not being implemented. The plaintiffs will have exhibit pilot by pilot to document how much each pilot is losing by the award not being implemented. Conversely, the defendants will have to show their pilot group damages if the award is implemented. Basically the HP pilots have to document their windfall in order to win this case. The term "windfall" is in the ALPA contract, i.e. no party shall have a windfall at the expense of the other. HP pilots are in essence going to court to prove that their award violates ALPA by-laws. Okay, say the court awards the HP pilots, but now since they proved their windfall the US pilots can then appeal AND sue ALPA based on court precedent. It's a legal mess that every pilot at every ALPA carrier will be paying for --- for years. This is the ultimate two pilot groups chasing their tails due to the lack of leadership (long before this merger) by ALPA national to resolve this issue.

Like I said before, as it stands today, there are no "damages" to either party because they are operating on different contracts. Hence, this thing will be tied up in court for years. Meanwhile, all the new hires will go to the East. They will get nice schedules and move up quickly -- do you honestly think they would vote a joint contract in knowing they would be going back to the bottom?

Wake up people. These pilot groups will never, ever, work together.

Later,
Eye

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I was in the middle of replying to hp_fa and others on the other thread until Richard locked it.

Anyway, here's what I wrote:
You guys aren't getting it. The AWA pilots will have to prove damages by the award not being implemented. The plaintiffs will have exhibit pilot by pilot to document how much each pilot is losing by the award not being implemented. Conversely, the defendants will have to show their pilot group damages if the award is implemented. Basically the HP pilots have to document their windfall in order to win this case. The term "windfall" is in the ALPA contract, i.e. no party shall have a windfall at the expense of the other. HP pilots are in essence going to court to prove that their award violates ALPA by-laws. Okay, say the court awards the HP pilots, but now since they proved their windfall the US pilots can then appeal AND sue ALPA based on court precedent. It's a legal mess that every pilot at every ALPA carrier will be paying for --- for years. This is the ultimate two pilot groups chasing their tails due to the lack of leadership (long before this merger) by ALPA national to resolve this issue.

Like I said before, as it stands today, there are no "damages" to either party because they are operating on different contracts. Hence, this thing will be tied up in court for years. Meanwhile, all the new hires will go to the East. They will get nice schedules and move up quickly -- do you honestly think they would vote a joint contract in knowing they would be going back to the bottom?

Wake up people. These pilot groups will never, ever, work together.

Later,
Eye

True so true. Excellent post

 

[AWA320]

I was in the middle of replying to hp_fa and others on the other thread until Richard locked it.

Anyway, here's what I wrote:
You guys aren't getting it. The AWA pilots will have to prove damages by the award not being implemented. The plaintiffs will have exhibit pilot by pilot to document how much each pilot is losing by the award not being implemented. Conversely, the defendants will have to show their pilot group damages if the award is implemented. Basically the HP pilots have to document their windfall in order to win this case. The term "windfall" is in the ALPA contract, i.e. no party shall have a windfall at the expense of the other. HP pilots are in essence going to court to prove that their award violates ALPA by-laws. Okay, say the court awards the HP pilots, but now since they proved their windfall the US pilots can then appeal AND sue ALPA based on court precedent. It's a legal mess that every pilot at every ALPA carrier will be paying for --- for years. This is the ultimate two pilot groups chasing their tails due to the lack of leadership (long before this merger) by ALPA national to resolve this issue.

Like I said before, as it stands today, there are no "damages" to either party because they are operating on different contracts. Hence, this thing will be tied up in court for years. Meanwhile, all the new hires will go to the East. They will get nice schedules and move up quickly -- do you honestly think they would vote a joint contract in knowing they would be going back to the bottom?

Wake up people. These pilot groups will never, ever, work together.

Later,
Eye

You finally make a point however you left out an important aspect and the most important aspect of all! This case was already heard by a third party arbitrator who has already given a ruling. The panel further submitted it's findings in support of their ruling. You agreed or rather your MEC and your merger committee agreed that the best way to settle this was thru arbitration. Now what will really damage your case and or cases is that never once during the process of mediation did you have a problem with George! Now we move to the arbitratrion and again you never made any claims that the panel was not competent. Further, the fact that you had prior dealings with this arbitrator and ranked him high on your list of potential candidates all serve to damage your claims.

There was no windfall and that has been throughly explained in the panels ruling contrary to what you think or feel personally. Now in my most humble opinion we will begin working together and much sooner than you might think and or like.

 

[Bus Driver]

There was no windfall and that has been throughly explained in the panels ruling contrary to what you think or feel personally. Now in my most humble opinion we will begin working together and much sooner than you might think and or like.
[/quote]

NO WINDFALL!

What are you smokin' ?

These pilot groups will never work together.

Ralph Cramden
Bus Driver

 

[sharktooth]

You guys aren't getting it. The AWA pilots will have to prove damages by the award not being implemented. The plaintiffs will have exhibit pilot by pilot to document how much each pilot is losing by the award not being implemented. Conversely, the defendants will have to show their pilot group damages if the award is implemented. Basically the HP pilots have to document their windfall in order to win this case. The term "windfall" is in the ALPA contract, i.e. no party shall have a windfall at the expense of the other. HP pilots are in essence going to court to prove that their award violates ALPA by-laws. Okay, say the court awards the HP pilots, but now since they proved their windfall the US pilots can then appeal AND sue ALPA based on court precedent. It's a legal mess that every pilot at every ALPA carrier will be paying for --- for years. This is the ultimate two pilot groups chasing their tails due to the lack of leadership (long before this merger) by ALPA national to resolve this issue.

Like I said before, as it stands today, there are no "damages" to either party because they are operating on different contracts. Hence, this thing will be tied up in court for years. Meanwhile, all the new hires will go to the East. They will get nice schedules and move up quickly -- do you honestly think they would vote a joint contract in knowing they would be going back to the bottom?

Damn! Someone let the cat out of the bag!

Heck, I was kinda looking forward to seeing the AWA side attempt to validate their own windfall in court. Mark Twain, indeed.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

You finally make a point however you left out an important aspect and the most important aspect of all! This case was already heard by a third party arbitrator who has already given a ruling. The panel further submitted it's findings in support of their ruling. You agreed or rather your MEC and your merger committee agreed that the best way to settle this was thru arbitration. Now what will really damage your case and or cases is that never once during the process of mediation did you have a problem with George! Now we move to the arbitratrion and again you never made any claims that the panel was not competent. Further, the fact that you had prior dealings with this arbitrator and ranked him high on your list of potential candidates all serve to damage your claims.

There was no windfall and that has been throughly explained in the panels ruling contrary to what you think or feel personally. Now in my most humble opinion we will begin working together and much sooner than you might think and or like.

AWA320,

Arbitrator is not a judge in a court of law. The judge in the court will decide the case based on the merits of each of the parties involved.

You realize this is going to take years to settle, don't you? That's the one thing East pilots realize; time is on their side and they are in no hurry to do ANYTHING. They'll hold up a new contract for years. They don't care; protecting their senority means more than money to them.

You guys on the other hand want to cash your lottery ticket, which I can't blame you.

At this point, I'd say fly up to Vegas and try your chances at the Craps table -- the odds are better there for getting some cash than waiting around for a new contract/windfall.

Later,
Eye

 

[Bear96]

I was in the middle of replying to hp_fa and others on the other thread until Richard locked it.

Anyway, here's what I wrote:
You guys aren't getting it. The AWA pilots will have to prove damages by the award not being implemented. The plaintiffs will have exhibit pilot by pilot to document how much each pilot is losing by the award not being implemented. Conversely, the defendants will have to show their pilot group damages if the award is implemented. Basically the HP pilots have to document their windfall in order to win this case. The term "windfall" is in the ALPA contract, i.e. no party shall have a windfall at the expense of the other. HP pilots are in essence going to court to prove that their award violates ALPA by-laws. Okay, say the court awards the HP pilots, but now since they proved their windfall the US pilots can then appeal AND sue ALPA based on court precedent. It's a legal mess that every pilot at every ALPA carrier will be paying for --- for years. This is the ultimate two pilot groups chasing their tails due to the lack of leadership (long before this merger) by ALPA national to resolve this issue.

Like I said before, as it stands today, there are no "damages" to either party because they are operating on different contracts.

You're making it needlessly complicated. (This appears to be a tactic on the part of the Easties here, to make it sound as though everything is so hopelessly complicated that the only practical solution is to simply scrap the Nic list and go DOH.)

A more likely and quite simple approach is not to figure out exact dollar amounts of damages to fashion a detailed economic remedy, but rather to have the court simply award specific performance of the contract (i.e., compel East to accept the award, as they agreed to do in the initial arbitration agreement).

Also, as I said in the other (now closed) thread, this will not be a chance to reargue the details of the award or whether in the East's opinion the arbitrator got it "right." A court will accept the arbitrated list as is and will not fiddle with it, because of the wide discretion given to arbitrators. This even further simplifies matters.

 

[Bear96]

AWA320,

Arbitrator is not a judge in a court of law. The judge in the court will decide the case based on the merits of each of the parties involved.

If by "the merits" you mean "the arguments of whether the list is 'fair' or in accordance with ALPA policy," you are wrong. For all practical purposes, an arbitrator is like a judge in a court of law when it comes to evaluating facts and witnesses to fashion a decision, because the courts will not second-guess those things except in the most extreme circumstances, which even East no longer argues is the case here.

If by "the merits" you mean "the arguments of whether there was a contract or binding arbitration decision and whether it was broken," you are correct. That is all that will be looked at.

 

[Tiger 1050]

I was in the middle of replying to hp_fa and others on the other thread until Richard locked it.

Anyway, here's what I wrote:
...Basically the HP pilots have to document their windfall in order to win this case. The term "windfall" is in the ALPA contract, i.e. no party shall have a windfall at the expense of the other. HP pilots are in essence going to court to prove that their award violates ALPA by-laws. Okay, say the court awards the HP pilots, but now since they proved their windfall the US pilots can then appeal AND sue ALPA based on court precedent.

You guys are not understanding when and how these goals/rules/policies are implemented in the merger policy. This "windfall" you speak of is to be avoided when the meger committees are trying to get a list put together themselves. ONCE YOU GO TO ARBITRATION IT IS OVER!!!!! YOU HAVE NO CONTROL!!! NOT YOU. NOT ALPA. The arbiter has the right to put the list together as he see's fit. Period. End of story.

It's a legal mess that every pilot at every ALPA carrier will be paying for --- for years.

How is your lawsuit going...?

Like I said before, as it stands today, there are no "damages" to either party because they are operating on different contracts. Hence, this thing will be tied up in court for years.

See your statement regarding ALPA pilots paying for frivolous lawsuits...

Meanwhile, all the new hires will go to the East. They will get nice schedules and move up quickly -- do you honestly think they would vote a joint contract in knowing they would be going back to the bottom?

I was in talking to our assistant CP the other day and while most will go east a lot will come to the west also. Yeah I do. Either way guys you cannot hold this off for ever. It was a legal process that both parties agreed to enter into. Just because you failed to understand the potential ramifications of your decision does not excuse you from your obligation to accept the award. Is there any evidence of impropriety? If not then you will fail in throwing out the list. It will be implemented.

Wake up people. These pilot groups will never, ever, work together.

We will see my friend...

Later,
Eye

 

[EyeInTheSky]

If by "the merits" you mean "the arguments of whether the list is 'fair' or in accordance with ALPA policy," you are wrong. For all practical purposes, an arbitrator is like a judge in a court of law when it comes to evaluating facts and witnesses to fashion a decision, because the courts will not second-guess those things except in the most extreme circumstances, which even East no longer argues is the case here.

If by "the merits" you mean "the arguments of whether there was a contract or binding arbitration decision and whether it was broken," you are correct. That is all that will be looked at.

You go to court to show damages. Both parties will have to prove their case. Believe me, this court case will set precidents. And, by the way, this sort of senority squabbling has happened before. Look what's going on SEVEN YEARS LATER since Air Canada acquired Canadian Airlines http://www.caselab.com/canadianpilots/?browser_checked=1 it's still in court!!!

Later,
Eye

 

[Bear96]

You go to court to show damages. Both parties will have to prove their case.

Yes, of course. Where did I indicate otherwise?

Believe me, this court case will set precidents.

Yes, of course. All cases set precedent to some degree.

And, by the way, this sort of senority squabbling has happened before.

Has anyone said seniority squabbling hasn't happened before?

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Yes, of course. Where did I indicate otherwise?
Yes, of course. All cases set precedent to some degree.
Has anyone said seniority squabbling hasn't happened before?

Bear96,
It's time for you to go hibernate back in Elk Grove.

Later,
Eye

 

[nostradamus]

There was no windfall and that has been throughly explained in the panels ruling contrary to what you think or feel personally. Now in my most humble opinion we will begin working together and much sooner than you might think and or like.

No windfall?


If this is not handled properly we will be working next to one another, not working together. This is not a threat but the most basic understanding of human nature.

Fences make good neighbors.
proverb

 

[Tiger 1050]

No windfall?


If this is not handled properly we will be working next to one another, not working together. This is not a threat but the most basic understanding of human nature.

And this happens on a small scale everyday at the airlines. It is very improbable to have all pilots get along at all times. Nothing new. If you are still upset when we fly together then so be it. I will get paid the same to be your friend and work together or just sit there and stare out the window enjoying the view...

Fences make good neighbors.

Indicative of our society today don't you think? And it is said the younger generation is screwing things up...
proverb