Company's Offer

[TWU informer]

That is an unfair attack. I've "known" FWAAA for years over at FlyerTalk.com and he's an intelligent contributor to discussions both here and there. Don't result to name-calling because you aren't able to respond to his arguments.

Name calling?

Read that post again and let me know where the "name calling" as you put it was inserted?

Now I personally believe you and he are one of the same, or at least the same team with the same agenda.

What is it you have personally sacrificed under the restructuring agreement again? I missed that somewhere along the way here.

 

[bigdawg52]

I would agree with you if this had been the first setback in a string of good contracts. But say you were hired in 95 as a junior clerk, $6 an hour untill whenever. Then in 2001 you finally started at $9 an hour on step 1 of the full clerk rate. Then you took a 20% cut in pay in 2003. Now you finally went A scale 2 years ago. Now no raise for 2 years, but hey at least you don't have to move?

Ledt me see in 2003 I lost my full time status, went to part time (only cities avialable, could not afford to live), plus took the pay cut, so I have been through it. It ended up costing me and my family 60%. Had to re-fi the house etc. etc.
So trust me I know what everyone went through, some worse than others.

As far as the scenario, that I typed, that is what almost happened in 2003. If some peep's here remember.
They wanted to out-scource every city that did not have at least 15 flights. The five dollars an hour was not part of it, of course.

People just see the dollar amount, and do not look at the ramifications that getting that money intails. The company, in no-way would give any work group that kind of money, with-out getting something in return.

In the long of it we would get that money back. But how many jobs and cities(out-scourced) would it cost. :angry:

 

[The Goose]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bob,

I've had a strong feeling of late, that ..NO raises/Bonus's WAS the way that they would go.

Just like contract...95'

That would be OK - our bonus would be equal in percentage of base pay to whatever the execs get over and about their base salaries.

Holidays back - ALL

Sicktime back - ALL

Vacation back - ALL

20% signing bonus

The snowball in hell is quickly melting ...

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Ledt me see in 2003 I lost my full time status, went to part time (only cities avialable, could not afford to live), plus took the pay cut, so I have been through it. It ended up costing me and my family 60%. Had to re-fi the house etc. etc.
So trust me I know what everyone went through, some worse than others.

As far as the scenario, that I typed, that is what almost happened in 2003. If some peep's here remember.
They wanted to out-scource every city that did not have at least 15 flights. The five dollars an hour was not part of it, of course.

People just see the dollar amount, and do not look at the ramifications that getting that money intails. The company, in no-way would give any work group that kind of money, with-out getting something in return.

In the long of it we would get that money back. But how many jobs and cities(out-scourced) would it cost. :angry:

Senior Alias User, aka neg. committee member,

You speak the language of the twu... FEAR! Boo-hoo! You state, "The company, in no way would give any work group that kind of money, with-out getting something in return.".

PLEASE...PLEASE...PLEASE think for yourself at least once in your life! What did the company get these past FIVE years from us without US getting something in return?

I do not just see the dollar amount. I also see RESPECT. But since you hide and post support for such proposals I can see you have no self-respect.

Now, wait till Monday when you next go back to negotiations with the other Locals and repeat after me, "I will swallow anything the twu intl. tells me to swallow. I will think only of myself... not the membership. I REFUSE to accept that I am capable of demanding both respect and wage & benefit returns to the membership."

As a union man you certainly dishonor those who voted not to bring this pig back to the membership.

 

[bigdawg52]

Senior Alias User, aka neg. committee member,

You speak the language of the twu... FEAR! Boo-hoo! You state, "The company, in no way would give any work group that kind of money, with-out getting something in return.".

PLEASE...PLEASE...PLEASE think for yourself at least once in your life! What did the company get these past FIVE years from us without US getting something in return?

I do not just see the dollar amount. I also see RESPECT. But since you hide and post support for such proposals I can see you have no self-respect.

Now, wait till Monday when you next go back to negotiations with the other Locals and repeat after me, "I will swallow anything the twu intl. tells me to swallow. I will think only of myself... not the membership. I REFUSE to accept that I am capable of demanding both respect and wage & benefit returns to the membership."

As a union man you certainly dishonor those who voted not to bring this pig back to the membership.

Do me a favor ignore me. Your really becomming a pain in my arse.
And if you really feel the need to know who I am, I am a full time FSC in TUS. My employee number is 166024(look it up), I have three kids a wife and work my arse off for a living. Unlike you who has nothing good to say about anything that you do not agree with. The closest I have ever been involved with the union as far elected board, was I was a union steward for all of one year, but at that time I did not agree with the way our local was handling certain things and resigned. Now that you know my whole life story, give me yours, ooh wait I probably already know, you are probably a single divorced man who is pissed at the world because they all do not see thiongs the way you do. Grow up talk like a man, because right now you are ranting like a little kid, who's ball was taken from him

 

[BigBangTheory]

Do me a favor ignore me. Your really becomming a pain in my arse.
And if you really feel the need to know who I am, I am a full time FSC in TUS. My employee number is ******(look it up),

I don't think its a wise choice posting your employee number on a public forum site. 😛h34r:

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ---- At least it doesn't start with a 6!!!! The man has back bone! I respect that! I don't agree with what he's saying! It seems I've been down this road before! TWA went nine plus years without a raise! Why do you think we were the low man on the totum pole when AA bought us? ----- Been there! Done that!----- NOT GOOD! :down:

 

[lineguy43]

Do me a favor ignore me. Your really becomming a pain in my arse.
And if you really feel the need to know who I am, I am a full time FSC in TUS. My employee number is 166024(look it up), I have three kids a wife and work my arse off for a living. Unlike you who has nothing good to say about anything that you do not agree with. The closest I have ever been involved with the union as far elected board, was I was a union steward for all of one year, but at that time I did not agree with the way our local was handling certain things and resigned. Now that you know my whole life story, give me yours, ooh wait I probably already know, you are probably a single divorced man who is pissed at the world because they all do not see thiongs the way you do. Grow up talk like a man, because right now you are ranting like a little kid, who's ball was taken from him

Atleast you are in TUS...That is a cool city wish I could my company was based there. Have no doubt you work hard there also. Hot there thats for sure.

 

[Bob Owens]

Ledt me see in 2003 I lost my full time status, went to part time (only cities avialable, could not afford to live), plus took the pay cut, so I have been through it. It ended up costing me and my family 60%. Had to re-fi the house etc. etc.
So trust me I know what everyone went through, some worse than others.

As far as the scenario, that I typed, that is what almost happened in 2003. If some peep's here remember.
They wanted to out-scource every city that did not have at least 15 flights. The five dollars an hour was not part of it, of course.

People just see the dollar amount, and do not look at the ramifications that getting that money intails. The company, in no-way would give any work group that kind of money, with-out getting something in return.

In the long of it we would get that money back. But how many jobs and cities(out-scourced) would it cost. :angry:

Every time the plane pushes off the gate they are getting their something in return.

 

[Bob Owens]

AA hasn't paid off anywhere near $10 billion of debt since 2003. More like $3 billion. Further, AA's improved cash position includes the sale of new debt right after the concessions were signed plus the sale of over a billion dollars worth of new stock once the stock recovered. Add in more than a billion dollars of cash from asset sales (Orbitz, Hotwire, etc) and that's where the improved cash came from.
AMR's unrestricted cash is NOT $5 billion more than in 2003, it's about $3.3 billion more. At 3/31/08, AMR had about $4.5 billion of unrestricted cash, compared to the approx. $1.2 billion in April 2003.

I was using numbers that I've heard, guilty as charged, back in 2003 we were told the company owed $22 billion and that once they dipped below a billion in cash that they were "technically" bankrupt. Lately I heard the figure was around 10 billion in debt and we had 5 or 6 billion in cash(restricted unrestricted who cares?). The exact numbers arent important to the arguement. I have always maintained that we should not allow the company to use their figures to determine what to pay us. The oil companies dont.

Plus, you appear to have forgotten the difference between positive cash flow and net profits. AA has had positive cash flow from operations since the concessions yet has had only two years of annual net profits (2006 and 2007). The loss in the first quarter wiped out more than the 2006 net profit and the second quarter loss will likely wipe out the 2007 profit.

Once again, these are things that are under the company's control, not ours. Since we have no say in how the company spends their money (Goldhoffers, electric carts, new interiors, new terminals etc) why should we allow ourselves to be liable for it-thats the shareholders burden, not ours.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

The exact numbers arent important to the arguement.

Ofcourse, let's just make up numbers (i.e. inflation over 7%) ... ... ...

 

[FWAAA]

I was using numbers that I've heard, guilty as charged, back in 2003 we were told the company owed $22 billion and that once they dipped below a billion in cash that they were "technically" bankrupt. Lately I heard the figure was around 10 billion in debt and we had 5 or 6 billion in cash(restricted unrestricted who cares?). The exact numbers arent important to the arguement. I have always maintained that we should not allow the company to use their figures to determine what to pay us. The oil companies dont.

The numbers aren't important? Then why did you bring them up? Fact is, for the past five years, AA's posted an aggregate net loss since the concessions were imposed. The net losses of 2003-05 wiped out the profits of 2006-07. Last quarter's loss alone wiped out the 206 net profit. There simply isn't any $15 billion extra. Spouting fantasy numbers like that leads to unrealistic expectations among your co-workers, many of whom believe what you say. All I'm trying to do is get you to focus on the reality. It's a grim one.

I think you deserve to make more money than you do. A lot more money.

Which bills do you propose AA not pay in order to give the employees the raises they demand (and probably deserve)? And don't start with the claptrap about just raising fares. AA and every other airline has tried their damndest to raise fares for over 6.5 years now. And expenses (mostly fuel) just keeps outpacing the higher fares.

Employees are the only expense that AA can slash without repercussion, and the employees have proven it over and over again. Nearly all the employees keep coming to work day after day for less money. Non-flight full time employees have come to work for about 1,200 days now since the concessions. Some have left to pursue their other great options (the ones everyone likes to talk about), but most keep coming to work.

Once again, these are things that are under the company's control, not ours. Since we have no say in how the company spends their money (Goldhoffers, electric carts, new interiors, new terminals etc) why should we allow ourselves to be liable for it-thats the shareholders burden, not ours.

I merely point out that AA's two years of recent profits have been wiped out by the more-recent losses (first two quarters of this year) and you respond with this? I don't see the relevance.

Nevertheless, are you saying the shareholders haven't "shared" AA's financial problems? I think they have, but I'm certain you'll disagree.

Again - I hope you guys can get more money. But when times are tough, parents don't get credit card cash advances to pay their kids' allowance (unless they're terminally stupid), and I'm certain AA isn't gonna borrow money it doesn't have to pay your wages. I'm sure that's unacceptable to you. So go ahead and strike. No doubt Arpey and the other greedy execs is really scared of that threat.

 

[Bagbelt]

Ironically, the upside of these fuel prices are an expansion of jobs in mass transit. As I have said I work with many former AMT's among others. I never thought I'd leave the airline business, but I only say it because there is life outside it and after a certain point you need to consider other options.

 

[FWAAA]

Ironically, the upside of these fuel prices are an expansion of jobs in mass transit. As I have said I work with many former AMT's among others. I never thought I'd leave the airline business, but I only say it because there is life outside it and after a certain point you need to consider other options.

Good point.

And ironically, the TWU is well-poised to make gains in that industry, being primarily a bus drivers' union. Don't the MTA drivers make about the same money as the AA AMTs?

 

[MCI transplant]

Good point.

And ironically, the TWU is well-poised to make gains in that industry, being primarily a bus drivers' union. Don't the MTA drivers make about the same money as the AA AMTs?

<_< ------- You know the last person in this world I thought I'd have something in common with is "Ralph Cramdin" of the Honeymooners!!! -------:blink: