Contract Carriers In Bk?
- Thread starter Light Years
- Start date
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
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MidwayMetrolink,
First, I assume you're talking about 2nd year pay since you specify the F28. Everybody made the same the first year (probation year) regardless of equipment.
Given that, the oldest I could find without digging around in the attic for an old PI contract is the 1998 rates - about $47 per hour with TOS about $68.
If memory serves (and it often doesn't), this is about the same as the original PI rates, but someone else may remember better. *The original PI rates would have had a small difference between the -1000 and -4000 version since the max gross weight was factored in back then.
Jim
First, I assume you're talking about 2nd year pay since you specify the F28. Everybody made the same the first year (probation year) regardless of equipment.
Given that, the oldest I could find without digging around in the attic for an old PI contract is the 1998 rates - about $47 per hour with TOS about $68.
If memory serves (and it often doesn't), this is about the same as the original PI rates, but someone else may remember better. *The original PI rates would have had a small difference between the -1000 and -4000 version since the max gross weight was factored in back then.
Jim
TBONEJ4J said:
TBONE,
You might want to go nice on the pay issue for CHQ. Their rates for 70 seaters are higher than those at both PSA and MDA. So, it is actually the WO airlines that are the "bottom feeders."
Peace!
Skeezer
There's more to pay than payrates. Ever heard of Soft Credits? Look at the W2 not the payrate.skeezer said:
The WOs are US Airways and fly for US Airways. They can't be compared to the Bottom Feeders unless they contract their lift to someone else other than their owner.
TBONEJ4J,
I hope I am not causing you a blood pressure problem, because it is honestly not my intent. What would you do if you were a twenty-something getting into aviation? You still have not answered my questions. You don't owe me anything, but I am afraid I will no longer be able to participate in this discussion until someone does. And PLEASE do it without calling us names.
I hope I am not causing you a blood pressure problem, because it is honestly not my intent. What would you do if you were a twenty-something getting into aviation? You still have not answered my questions. You don't owe me anything, but I am afraid I will no longer be able to participate in this discussion until someone does. And PLEASE do it without calling us names.
MidwayMetrolink said:
No name calling here, not at an individual anyway. I am refering to operations that contract lift and any name calling applies to those operations.
But 1,879 US Airways Pilots no longer work for US Airways, while contractors such as CHQ and Mesa are hiring dozens each month, largely to cover flying for the US Airways Brand. That's messed up, quite frankly.
And if you are a twenty-something getting into aviation, by all means do whatever you need to do to succeed, short of buying a job of course. But reflect on the career paths of all those who went before and then figure out at what point in your career you'll be put on the street because mangement has found a way of getting a fresh-faced kid from Purdue to do your job for a fraction of the cost. Airplanes and Airlines have such impressive safety records now that passengers don't care about experience. That's why 1800hrs total time in an airline cockpit, as happens at CHQ, is not an issue.
So good luck to the twenty something tyro. But in this instance, the only reason he or she has a job flying the US Airways brand is because management, regretably with the agreement of ALPA, found a way to take it away from 1,879 well paid pilots and transfer it to a bunch of twenty something novices.
Again, none of you at contract lift providers are scabs, but the impact on the industry is the same. How can any group of pilots defend a contract, when there is another group of pilots waiting in the wings to undercut that contract?
TBONEJ4J,
Thank you for responding. I hope we are on a level playing field now. I feel that we are. With that being said I have reflected a lot on the airline industry as most of my family and friends were part of it. I realize that you may not intend to call us names, but by calling the contract carriers BOTTOM FEEDING PRETENDERS, it is sort of insulting......even to the former mainliners who work there because there aren't too many jobs out there. Don't take it personally???.....How else should I take it. What is it if it's not personal? The other day I was doing a pre-flight and noticed someone spray painted "EXPRESS PAY NO WAY" inside a baggage compartment. I did not instantly ascertain that all US AIRWAYS folks were graffiti writers.
So that's all I am asking. I am being sensitive to you and everyone else. Please be sensitive to us. This is not the only industry transforming. Look at the medical field. If you want to blame contract deals...better go further than aviation.
I've said it before...This is actually a generational issue.
OK I am through with this subject, but I truly would like someone to go back and try to answer all of my questions that were on page one of this thread. I will not respond, but would like to hear some thoughts.
Best Wishes to You and all others on this Forum.
Thank you for responding. I hope we are on a level playing field now. I feel that we are. With that being said I have reflected a lot on the airline industry as most of my family and friends were part of it. I realize that you may not intend to call us names, but by calling the contract carriers BOTTOM FEEDING PRETENDERS, it is sort of insulting......even to the former mainliners who work there because there aren't too many jobs out there. Don't take it personally???.....How else should I take it. What is it if it's not personal? The other day I was doing a pre-flight and noticed someone spray painted "EXPRESS PAY NO WAY" inside a baggage compartment. I did not instantly ascertain that all US AIRWAYS folks were graffiti writers.
So that's all I am asking. I am being sensitive to you and everyone else. Please be sensitive to us. This is not the only industry transforming. Look at the medical field. If you want to blame contract deals...better go further than aviation.
I've said it before...This is actually a generational issue.
OK I am through with this subject, but I truly would like someone to go back and try to answer all of my questions that were on page one of this thread. I will not respond, but would like to hear some thoughts.
Best Wishes to You and all others on this Forum.
Oooh,my my,well let's take this apart,shall we ?
"Chautauqua is a Bottom-Feeder because your phenomenal growth has come from providing lift at a level of cost that is below others who tendered for the same lift contract. This would be commendable, except for the fact that by doing so you give airline management what they have long dreamed of. A means of destroying Contracts that have been won through the blood, sweat and tears of pilots who were fighting for a living probably before you were born."
JetBlue et. al have had "phenomenal growth "-who's contract did they destroy ?
"You have the lowest cost, because you have undercut other operators by paying poorly, having an exceptionally junior workforce, and employing just about any pilot with a commercial multi certificate."
And USAir is a high cost dinosaur with an exceptionally senior workforce.As for the " employing just about any pilot with a commercial multi certificate" remark,I will say this:More evidence of the arrongance of mainline pilots.We may not be all ex-military members of the erstwhile Master Race at U,but we haven't put any airplanes in Flushing Bay,either.
"You are a bottom feeder because you and your ilk wait eagerly for the next hole in some airline's scope so you may put in the lowest bid to take that brand's flying for yourself."
I don't bid on anything but my next month's schedule,nor does any other line pilot.
"That is why you are a Pretender. You pretend to be an airline that you are NOT. You are not US Airways, you are not Delta, you are not United, but you pretend to be all three. I may be mistaken, but I think you also pretend to be American in St. Louis. You pretend to be a Brand that you are not. I don't think any passenger has ever bought a ticket on Chautauqua Airlines, have they?"
No,and they don't buy tickets on Mid Atlantic,Allegheny,PSA or Piedmont either.
"You and your fellow travellers at Mesa etc., etc. are all Bottom-Feeding Pretenders, and when your purpose has been served you will go away. But don't kid yourself that your part of a go-getter airline operation. You are no JetBlue, nor Southwest, nor AirTran. At least they are real competitiors flying their own brand. You are part of an insidious disease that eats away at and destroys real contracts. When those contracts have been destroyed, there will be no more need for the Pretender. While you are not a Scab, the impact on the industry of your type of operation has been the same."
Oh boy,here we go-a scab comparison.Do you look at the former U pilots who work for us under J4J the same way ? Has the Southwest ,Airtran,etc. impact been the same ? Mid Atlantic pilots work for less than we do-are they semi-scabs too ? They take flying away from mainline,right ? You have gone off the deep end.
"Chautauqua is a Bottom-Feeder because your phenomenal growth has come from providing lift at a level of cost that is below others who tendered for the same lift contract. This would be commendable, except for the fact that by doing so you give airline management what they have long dreamed of. A means of destroying Contracts that have been won through the blood, sweat and tears of pilots who were fighting for a living probably before you were born."
JetBlue et. al have had "phenomenal growth "-who's contract did they destroy ?
"You have the lowest cost, because you have undercut other operators by paying poorly, having an exceptionally junior workforce, and employing just about any pilot with a commercial multi certificate."
And USAir is a high cost dinosaur with an exceptionally senior workforce.As for the " employing just about any pilot with a commercial multi certificate" remark,I will say this:More evidence of the arrongance of mainline pilots.We may not be all ex-military members of the erstwhile Master Race at U,but we haven't put any airplanes in Flushing Bay,either.
"You are a bottom feeder because you and your ilk wait eagerly for the next hole in some airline's scope so you may put in the lowest bid to take that brand's flying for yourself."
I don't bid on anything but my next month's schedule,nor does any other line pilot.
"That is why you are a Pretender. You pretend to be an airline that you are NOT. You are not US Airways, you are not Delta, you are not United, but you pretend to be all three. I may be mistaken, but I think you also pretend to be American in St. Louis. You pretend to be a Brand that you are not. I don't think any passenger has ever bought a ticket on Chautauqua Airlines, have they?"
No,and they don't buy tickets on Mid Atlantic,Allegheny,PSA or Piedmont either.
"You and your fellow travellers at Mesa etc., etc. are all Bottom-Feeding Pretenders, and when your purpose has been served you will go away. But don't kid yourself that your part of a go-getter airline operation. You are no JetBlue, nor Southwest, nor AirTran. At least they are real competitiors flying their own brand. You are part of an insidious disease that eats away at and destroys real contracts. When those contracts have been destroyed, there will be no more need for the Pretender. While you are not a Scab, the impact on the industry of your type of operation has been the same."
Oh boy,here we go-a scab comparison.Do you look at the former U pilots who work for us under J4J the same way ? Has the Southwest ,Airtran,etc. impact been the same ? Mid Atlantic pilots work for less than we do-are they semi-scabs too ? They take flying away from mainline,right ? You have gone off the deep end.
- Thread Starter
- #24
MidAtlantic only has to exist, and be cheaper becauser the employees now have outside competition on thier very own property. Its hard to want to fight your airline competition when you have competition FOR YOUR JOB on your own property. US hasn't realized this, they gutted and demoralized the workforce and decimated the brand image when they replaced the airline with inexperienced and embarrassing "RJ providers"
As for US Airways having a very senior workforce, its not that much more senior than any other "legacy" (such a dumb term) airline. Its just that being such a short haul airline, they were bigger victims of crappy regional outsourcing, and now 40% of the workforce- the junior half- is gone. Oh, but all the contract carriers are hiring, to wear the uniforms we worked hard for and replace our brand flying for humiliating pay rates and quality of life.
Contract carrier employees are just doing thier job and trying to get into the industry like everyone did once (or numerous times). The difference is that they have nothing to look forward to, and by taking these jobs they plunge the professions even more down the toilet. The fact that some cab drivers make more than some pilots is disgusting. The fact that some trained flight attendants make less than Wal-Mart employees is disgusting. How much lower can it go? Should aviation wannabes stay home, refusing jobs on principle? No, of course not. But they should know exactly what thier companies are doing, and how they are being exploited to ruin careers, professions, and lives.
Theres just no argument for it. Its completely wrong. Its outsourcing and union busting plain and simple. Contract carrier employees are not to blame, but to try and justify it is unbelievable.
As for US Airways having a very senior workforce, its not that much more senior than any other "legacy" (such a dumb term) airline. Its just that being such a short haul airline, they were bigger victims of crappy regional outsourcing, and now 40% of the workforce- the junior half- is gone. Oh, but all the contract carriers are hiring, to wear the uniforms we worked hard for and replace our brand flying for humiliating pay rates and quality of life.
Contract carrier employees are just doing thier job and trying to get into the industry like everyone did once (or numerous times). The difference is that they have nothing to look forward to, and by taking these jobs they plunge the professions even more down the toilet. The fact that some cab drivers make more than some pilots is disgusting. The fact that some trained flight attendants make less than Wal-Mart employees is disgusting. How much lower can it go? Should aviation wannabes stay home, refusing jobs on principle? No, of course not. But they should know exactly what thier companies are doing, and how they are being exploited to ruin careers, professions, and lives.
Theres just no argument for it. Its completely wrong. Its outsourcing and union busting plain and simple. Contract carrier employees are not to blame, but to try and justify it is unbelievable.
Contract carriers exist to bolster the network of the mainline not supplant their employees or ratchet down their benefits. The Hub and Spoke model depends on incremental load contributions generated by these carriers from sources that the mainline cannot serve due to cost considerations. (they also generate needed frequenct to attract pax) So they are not competition but a cooperative to serve the mainline in their efforts to dominate a region or network. It appears that neither can survive w/o the other.
luvn737s said:
What taxpayer money was used to pay these leases? Please cite exactly from where you get specific numbers.
Please don't kid yourself to justify your existence.
Contract Carriers exist because certain groups of well paid ALPA pilots in the past decided that flying a Smaller and/or Turboprop aircraft for less money was beneath them. By natural evolution, Contract Carriers have ultimately become in-house competition, driving down pay and benefits within an entire Brand. That is the reality of the industry as it stands today.
But to go back to the original purpose of the thread - US Airways is in bankruptcy. Contract Carriers make profits from the lift contracts with US Airways. Those contracts need to be tackled in bankruptcy to keep more of those profits within the Group. The margins are too high to be paid by a struggling airline. Hopefully now that JO's good buddy Dave is out of the picture, some meaningful trimming of the contract carriers financials will occur. After all, US Airways is supposed to benefit the shareholders of US Airways, NOT the shareholders of Mesa, Chautauqua, etc., etc.
Contract Carriers exist because certain groups of well paid ALPA pilots in the past decided that flying a Smaller and/or Turboprop aircraft for less money was beneath them. By natural evolution, Contract Carriers have ultimately become in-house competition, driving down pay and benefits within an entire Brand. That is the reality of the industry as it stands today.
But to go back to the original purpose of the thread - US Airways is in bankruptcy. Contract Carriers make profits from the lift contracts with US Airways. Those contracts need to be tackled in bankruptcy to keep more of those profits within the Group. The margins are too high to be paid by a struggling airline. Hopefully now that JO's good buddy Dave is out of the picture, some meaningful trimming of the contract carriers financials will occur. After all, US Airways is supposed to benefit the shareholders of US Airways, NOT the shareholders of Mesa, Chautauqua, etc., etc.
- Thread Starter
- #28
mwa said:
No, thats what Piedmont and PSA are for. Our US Airways Group, owned, exclusive, US Airways Express carriers.
The combination of using money granted to USAir after 9/11 and the use of ATSB money for working capital while in bankruptcy amounts to the use of taxpayer money.N628AU said:
The regionals will earn the respect of their mainline counterparts when they stand up for the profession by demanding that their wages rise to a parity with the mainline and by demanding that mainline employees be allowed first chance at all windfall employment that comes as a result of mainline downsizing.
The regional has no legacy or reputation beyond that of it's mainline patron. If it wants to establish itself as a stand-alone provider who code-shares, then that is a different story.
The 20 something that doesn't aspire to more than a regional career maybe doesn't feel the mainline pilots that have come before owe him anything. I've never met one that refused to apply at a major, though.
The regional has no legacy or reputation beyond that of it's mainline patron. If it wants to establish itself as a stand-alone provider who code-shares, then that is a different story.
The 20 something that doesn't aspire to more than a regional career maybe doesn't feel the mainline pilots that have come before owe him anything. I've never met one that refused to apply at a major, though.
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