Dave Porks Pittsburgh?

[PITbull]

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On 4/1/2003 11:01:50 AM funguy2 wrote:

Sounds like the county "porked" itself when it built a huge facility on the basis of U always being around.

Have all of the gates ever been occupied? I ask because the last time I was there I noticed that 1/2 of the C and D concourses looked empty.

Its a beautiful, modern, and passenger friendly facility. But maybe if they had taken a more modular approach to building it, like MCO or TPA, it would not have been as expensive, and only what was needed would have been built. Maybe U had visions of grandeur for PIT back when the facility was built, but it seems to me the airport authority should have been more reserved... And worried about the economics of the area/airport rather than building U's "crown jewel" for them.

DCA Flyer:

I remember in the mid '80's there was talk of building huge airports in the middle of Kansas as a connecting only airport for the airline that built it. It obviously never happened, most likely for the very reason you state. Connecting traffic is generally considered 'marginal'. Its important for cash flow and can even be profitable. But what makes a difference in hub profit/loss is the O/D traffic. U's biggest PIT asset is the loyalty of FF's there, not the terminal building.

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Pittsburgh was always a great, profitable Hub for U. Think back folks when we had a ton of flights out of PIT,and when it rained or snowed...WE WERE ON TIME. In PHL, if you spit on the runway, you back up traffic for hours and hours, and I think even days (lol).

Seriously, folks are saying that PIT gates in C & D are looking ghostly. That's only now. U had the monopoly on PIT gates and that was the contract terms in the beginning of building this new airport. U contributed something like $500 million to its construction to secure the majority of gates. I can recall at the old airport, it was so crowed that you could hardly move to walk from gate to gate. And there were delays, cause there were not enough gates to house the planes. You had to wait, and wait on the run way for a gate.

It's difficult for other carriers to weasle in here cause everything and everybody flies USAirways. U was never ripped off by the County. U presence kept business here in PIT, and the County, took care of U, especially during the past 9 months lobbying for U's survival and presence in Pittsburgh and PHL. It was a mutual exchange and successful enterprise transaction serving both purposes for U and the County. U made alot of money in the late 90s in PIT, with many flights and departures for the customer to do their business and get right on the next flight out, or come in.

How quickly folks forget. This new Board at U has alligence only to the mighty dollar. Period.
And anything and anyone stands in their way, they will plow over. Again, today's news disturbs me, and I beleive the employees that live in PIT will suffer yet again another "blow". Remember, not everyone who works for U commutes. And keep in mind, you don't get space positive, and who can afford a "crash pad" now a days? Hell, and there is very little if anything that any of us can do about it.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

My guess on facts about PIT:

1) It costs too much to operate there

2) The fare premium that U enjoyed over PA that covered the high costs has evaporated because of LCC competition and FF's woke up and smelled the restricted-fare coffee

3) O & D sucks and sucks more now than earlier

4) U no longer can throw money at PIT just to keep a LCC from operating there... also who cares... they operate everywhere else already

5) with Star Alliance... system connectivity isn't particularly served by PIT

oh yeah and

6) the base of FF'ers at PIT is too small to worry about anyway.

So, with those invented facts, recommended strategy:

1) If UAL remains in business, lower lease payments at PIT and run RJ's to serve O & D and limited connectivity, since labor contracts might make that feasible, because no other carrier thinks PIT's worth big jets, anyway.

2) If UAL doesn't remain in business, keep PIT around until you see opportunities for a midwest hub at larger O & D markets, if U can stay in Star Alliance

3) If U can't stay in Star Alliance without a bigger midwest hub, then, maybe look for a financier (LH and/or RSA?) for UAL's midwest and west hubs.


Mind you, I've been to Pittsburgh once in my life. It looks like a pretty city, in places, but my intuition tells me it can't and never could support the hub it's built for.

 

[delldude]

i think daves got plans on alot of RJ''S landing here and in the end allegheny county may still make their bond payments with a high volume of a/c landing at a lower landing fee,and still raking in the same amount or close to it.i accessed the BK website and downloaded the motion...not only did ally county get the shaft but EVERY contract on the property went out the window.from the vending machine company to moon school district to the airport fueler.the whole ball of wax.
ally co. is going to have to keep up with the jones here or end up with the short end of the stick.if they don''t get to some agreement here i don''t see another carrier low cost or not coming to county''s aid and paying those high fees just so they can keep the banker happy.davey do a touche...got ''em over a barrel i''d say.

 

[DCAflyer]

RowUnderDCA,

Exactly the points I''v been trying to make. PIT just doesn''t make sense. Now that we''ve finally got our heads above water, it''s time for the Daves to begin looking at strategic growth, which takes time, of course. And even though growth may not happen in the short term, they need to chart U''s growth. As much as I would hate to see that great PIT facility go, it''s time to look at other possibilities where we can make some serious money when times are good again so we can be sustained when we have another slump. That was our problem. WolfGang never addressed the real issues, and Dave finally is.

What makes a good hub:

1) Significant O&D traffic

2) Centralized location

3) Weather considerations addressed

4) Adequate runways

5) Facilities

PIT enjoys neither of the top two and that''s what makes the problems at PIT insurmountable.

DCAflyer

 

[RowUnderDCA]

Well-

I just wish everybody luck, cuz, it''s not much easier to run a big airport today than it is to run an airline. Lot''s of folks want you to do stuff, but few are providing the cash.

 

[nycbusdriver]

If only we could magically move the entire PIT airport to Essington, PA.

But, since that''s not likely to happen, I''m heartened to see Dave willing to smash some of the old Allegheny icons. I hate to see a pull-down at PIT, but if it doesn''t make business sense to keep the high level of service there, then let''s not dwell on sentiment (like Dave''s predecessors.)

Now that our contracts have been effectively bulldozed, let''s just get on with clearing the rest of the landscape to make room for a whole new USAirways. Hold nothing sacred. Make everything stand on its merits, or fall by the wayside. We may not survive at all, but we will certainly fail if we keep doing things just because "that''s the way we''ve always done it at Allegheny/USAir/USAirways."

 

[sfb]

I think an important reason why the new PIT terminal was overbuilt was providing a justification for replacing the old one. After all, if they had built a new terminal with only a few more gates than the old one, folks would have screamed about why all that money was spent on a brand-new facility which simply didn''t provide much more (aside from more amenities) than the old one. And there was a significant amount of pride invested in making the new terminal a showplace. (I think this is actually analogous to the problem of high costs at DEN). The county got USAir (at the time) to agree to back most of the cost through a long-term lease; since USAir had long had ties to the Pittsburgh area, the PIT hub carried special weight.

The problem is, a plan that looked good in the late 1980''s hasn''t held up well 15 years later. Pittsburgh is the ONLY metro area of the top 40 which lost population between 1990 and 2000; moreover, Pittsburgh lost nearly 10% of its metro population between 1970 and 2000. Many of the cities for which PIT is a good hub have fared poorly in the last 20-30 years as well. US Airways doesn''t have as strong a grip on the Northeast as it used to, so the amount of traffic it needs to funnel through PIT has declined dramatically. That means they simply don''t need the 50+ mainline gates they leased in a hub with only 146 daily mainline departures. Consider that WN operates 150+ daily flights at BWI from fewer than 20 gates.

PIT really will only work for US Airways in future if it starts to look more like CLE or CVG, and note that Delta is only using about 25 mainline gates at CVG these days.

 

[CLTBWIDAYSYR]

I''m confused. US coughed up a lot of cash to build the terminal, but Allegheny Co got to call all the shots and rake in the cash. Now THEY''RE upset? CLT reduced landing fees when US fell into trouble, PIT did nothing. And lest you all forget that US has more employees in PIT than in ANY OTHER CITY, even though our headquarters is in Arlington and our largest hub is in Charlotte. How is it this city is being short-changed? Favoritism is still shown to "the ''Burgh". How else can you explain how a base with fewer mainline departures has more flight attendants and pilots and flying time than its largest hub? How else can you explain how an airline with only 8,000 flight attendants keeps an antiquated training facility open while it has a huge 12 year-old facility under-utilized in CLT? That there are open simulator bays in CLT, yet Moon Township still has it''s own "bunker" for several aircraft types? 7,600 employees in PIT, 6,100 in CLT.

I don''t want to see anyone displaced, but really (!), PIT has had it good for an awfully long time. I don''t think you''ll hear anyone from from former US cites like DAY, LAX, SFO, BWI, SYR, UCA, IND, SAN, RNO, PDX, SMF, BUR, ONT, CAE, GSP, GSO, INT, MCO, BNA, Reston, MIA, etc...complain as loudly as those in the center of the former AL/US universe--Pittsburgh. We''ve all been abused. At former PI, we had three of our bases closed in the 80''s. At former PSA, the early 90''s were hellish. Welcome to our club. Sadly, membership is not free.

 

[midway7]

I agree, this is just a business / legal move as a result of the bk filing. You have to remember, bankruptcy is a bottom of the barrel - highly advesarial process, Allegheny county should have seen this coming.

I think US should consolidate all ops to the A & B Concourses. Specifically A for RJ''s and props, B for mainline. (and per diem lease on C for IAB flights). If they vacate E, it is highly unlikely that anyone would come in their place. Besides, if things change in the future, they could always work a lease to get E back.

With regards to the construction of the new terminal back in the late 80''s - early 90''s, I don''t think it was an overkill. At the time, the old facility was breaking at the seams. When US moved into the new terminal in Oct 1992, they fully utilized it. Things have changed. Besides, the county has dealt with USAir cutbacks and uncertainties for years. They knew potientially what might happen, and elected not to have any plan in place if it did occur. I will tell you this, if Allegheny county decides to sit back and let USAirways leave, I don''t think anyone will take their place. They need to work this out and keep USAirways in place. If not, they will have a three quarters empty airport on their hands and no one to fill the void. References have been made to ATL and MIA, but lets face it, this is not ATL or MIA, its PIT and I don''t think anyone is ready, will, and able to expand to a hub there.

I hope it all works out. My parents are from Allegheny county, we have alot of friends there. Many work for USAirways. Its a great hub and the memories of what it was versus where it is headed are disheartning.

Regards,

Midway 7

 

[Rob]

What''s wrong with a CVG/CLE style hub in PIT? It would be big enough to keep the business community happy and capable of instant, cheap expansion if the city turns around its fortunes.

If the city turns around ... I believe it will. Like other midwestern cities, PIT is much nicer than people think; it will be rediscovered.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

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On 4/4/2003 9:25:35 AM midway7 wrote:

I think US should consolidate all ops to the A & B Concourses. Specifically A for RJ''s and props, B for mainline. (and per diem lease on C for IAB flights). If they vacate E, it is highly unlikely that anyone would come in their place. Besides, if things change in the future, they could always work a lease to get E back.

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If I were the airport, I''d close the ENDS of A & B, to convert them to small jet/turbo prop, leaving the insides of A & B for mainline jets. This will concentrate foot traffic for vendors, reduce over-all average walking distance, and disperse a mix of loading bridges lounges more evenly throughout the airport, so that mixed fleet operations by carriers can be conducted in rough proximity to each other.

Once the end half or third of A & B are converted to small plane operations, I''d consider doing that with the other domestic concourse.

 

[ClueByFour]

The airport authority and county are insured on the bond issues. Default on those, while it will negatively impact the county''s credit rating, will not cause major fiscal headaches.

The fares out of Pittsburgh are a direct result of US'' greed and "fortress hub" pricing policies, and have little if anything to do with the cost of leasing gates at PIT. America West, Airtran, and US'' matching their fares is proof of this.

The ultimate insult from all of this is that while the lease rates may drop, fares will not (Absent more lower cost competition).

 

[Martek85]

Based on the high costs of these leases and all the complaints about high fares originating from PIT are connected. Maybe reducing the lease costs will result in lower fares for PIT passengers. jmtcw

 

[mlt]

Everything this management team does is calculated. This ploy will be the excuse to drastically reduce/completely eliminate mainline flying out of Pittsburgh and turn it into an RJ hub.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

Unfortunately, surrounding communities may not be on the hook to cover losses of the ACAA, so presuming that there isn''t any illegal airport revenue leak to non-airport purposes that can be stopped, airport users will have to make up the difference.

Unless,

Non-aeronautical sources of ACAA airport revenue can be enhanced.

Non-aeronautical ACAA costs can be reduced.

Non-airport money gets funneled to the Airport.

Otherwise, aeronautical consumers will pay more and/or get less.