Dec 2012/Jan 2013 IAM Fleet Service Discussions

[JFK Fleet Service]

If there is a meger, there are a few possible outcomes in regards to Fleet Service and our representation. The simplest is that we lose union rpresentation. If that happens all CBAs go away. The surviving company will be able to pay us whatever they want; maybe they'll pay us well, like CO did, or maybe they'll pay us DGS wages and benefits.

Wow, really? Lose repesentation?

Way to redline the FUD machine.Panic much?

The company can drag things out for a LONG time (think on the scale of close to a decade), leaving everyone on the CBA they have right now.

Really? A decade? You've got battered spouse syndrome.Think intergration timelines, spelled out in transition agreement.

The surviving union leadership can throw us under the bus like Canale did.

Ahh, I see now.You're still butthurt about the IAM douching your station in exchange for catering in PHL or something along those lines a bankruptcy or two ago.TWU wants as many people paying dues as possible.You and your dues arent going under the bus.

The first is that NO AA UNION IS A FUTUTRE PARTNER AT THIS TIME!

There wouldn't be signed MOU's with all three unions here if they didn't think that was about to change now would there?

That leave one week for LR, a department of four people BTW, to deal with EVERYTHING else.

Four people? Simplifiying the corporate structure a bit much there aren't you? These four heros aren't going to get the APA, the APFA and the TWU to agree to MOU's all by themselves are they? C'mon now.

 

[Tim Nelson]

I'm goign to assume that your number is correct, I honestly don't know. What you're failing to mention (or realize, not sure which) is that it is correct only if we either do not increase it in our new CBA or fail to get our new CBA negotiated. I also believe you are still misrepresenting the fact that these statements only apply to FUTURE benefits. Everyone is at the current rate. If I retire at the end of the year and am due $600/month at $83(?)/month, that's what I get. If I retire at the end of 2014 and my benefit is reduced to (whatever it is but say) $45/month I'll get $645/month.

Not sure what you are talking about that I am somehow misrepresenting something. My statement is based on the situation starting in 2014 as noted. What is being misrepresented are your statements that suggest that the defined benefit necessarily goes up if a new CBA forces more company contributions to the IAM pension. Where have we seen that before? Just because a company dumps more money into the ponzie scheme doesn't mean the defined benefit goes up. In 2003, the company dumped less money into the ponzie scheme than it does now, but the defined benefit was drastically cut starting in 2014. Not cut by the company, as it continues to put the same amount of your negotiated package into the IAM Pension coffers, but the IAM Pension trustees slashed your return on the increased amount that the company negotiated to put in it. That's why the company wanted the disclaimer in your contract that says the company is NOT responsible for the defined benefit amount that IS determined by the IAM Pension trustees. I don't deny that some, perhaps you, are comfortable with these trustees determining future benefits, but I am not. IMO, it makes absolutely no sense at all, and is quite insane, to increase the money that the company contributes to a fund whose benefit amount is controlled by others who have already pulled a 'robin hood' reversed on us. Maybe I'm in the minority in this, dunno, but it's mind boggling to me at least that anyone would want any portion of more of the pie dumped into that fund, as opposed to our pockets or health care. regards,

 

[Tim Nelson]

While there are many issues uncertain and countless scenarios that may play out there are a few certainties IMO, at this point, in the event of a merger. Both existing contracts would remain in effect and enforced by whichever union wins representation rights. Both current contracts have been gutted through bankcuptcy talks. Niether is desirable and both are below industry average. The company will continue their strategy of negotiations at a snails pace for either a Transition Agreement or new contract. It is in their financial best interests to keep both work groups under these gutted contracts for as long as possible. Additionally, both contracts provide ample opportunity for job elimination through subcontracting. This will take some time... but watch how quickly they'll move. In the end... those workers who do remain may see modest improvement to wages and benefits but it will be years before this is realized. The years of stagnant wages/benefits and jobs lost will never be recovered.

While there are many issues uncertain and countless scenarios that may play out there are a few certainties IMO, at this point, in the event of a merger. Both existing contracts would remain in effect and enforced by whichever union wins representation rights. Both current contracts have been gutted through bankcuptcy talks. Niether is desirable and both are below industry average. The company will continue their strategy of negotiations at a snails pace for either a Transition Agreement or new contract. It is in their financial best interests to keep both work groups under these gutted contracts for as long as possible. Additionally, both contracts provide ample opportunity for job elimination through subcontracting. This will take some time... but watch how quickly they'll move. In the end... those workers who do remain may see modest improvement to wages and benefits but it will be years before this is realized. The years of stagnant wages/benefits and jobs lost will never be recovered.

Very accurate indeed. And although I'm not a TWU member, I'm surprised that TWU members thought so less of the "Me Too" to give it up for the 4.3%. That "Me Too" was the best thing about that first bankrupt contract and kept management from dumping everything to pilots. I haven't read the entire giveback program but it appears that the TWU has once again gone incredibly soft. regards,

 

[ograc]

then its time for all the labor groups to signal its time to call in the nmb and or authorize a strike vote.....something like that from all labor groups at both should serve as a wake up call to mgmt at both carriers but i dont know if they could do it at a bankrupt airline
tim, reason i say the iam is better is bec my neighbor told me about the twu and the crap they pulled which is more than what we took in our ch 11 trips.. he to this very day tells me always we still have a better contract n all despite it being a ch 11 under theirs they lost a lot more and depending on the person's age the buyout was either good or bad i dont know when but i think may be now might be a good time for all of us union people to come together and send strong messages to mgmt enough is enough get us a contract a decent livable one and for them to stop talking anthr airline and their unions til a merger happens

An inherent problem and handicap that all unions have, who negotiate under the RLA, is that current contracts are allowed to go well beyond their ammendable dates without consequence to either party. I have been told the industry average is 2.5 years beyond an ammendable date before a new contract is reached. At that rate, by the time you have negotiated 2 contracts, you have lost 5 years. Again... 2.5 years is industry average. We have seen US take it well beyond this average with many workgroups on the property. As long as this advantageous avenue exists US and other airlines will continue to negotiate at a snails pace. Meeting once a month to exchange proposals can hardly be considered fast track, high priority negotiating in good faith.

 

[robbedagain]

FREEDOM ON THE CONTRARY NOW IS THE TIME TO ACTUALLY BECOME A FORCE TO WRECKEN WITH IF ALL THE UNIONS GOT TOGETHER AND WENT TO THE NMB TO DECLARE IMPASS OR TO AUTHORIZE A STRIKE VOTE.... I BELIEVE THE F/AS DID JUST THAT AND LOOK AT THEM NOW AS THEY VOTE ON THEIR THIRD AGREEMENT.... GEE TO ME THAT SOUNDS LIKE SOME SOLIDARITY THERE ITS CLEAR TO ME YOU ARE NOT A UNION PERSON AND YOU WOULD RATHER HAVE MGMT STOMP ALL OVER YOU AND WHAT WILL YOU DO FREEDOM IF WE MERGE WITH AA AND THEY START TO DOWN SIZE PHX IT WILL HAPPEN IF AND WHEN WE MERGE

 

[robbedagain]

SO TRUE ORGAC I KNEW THE COMPANY LOVES TO DRAG THEIR PAWS IN THIS BUT AGAIN SOMETHING SHOULD BE DONE THOUGH RIGHT

 

[Tim Nelson]

then its time for all the labor groups to signal its time to call in the nmb and or authorize a strike vote.....something like that from all labor groups at both should serve as a wake up call to mgmt at both carriers but i dont know if they could do it at a bankrupt airline
tim, reason i say the iam is better is bec my neighbor told me about the twu and the crap they pulled which is more than what we took in our ch 11 trips.. he to this very day tells me always we still have a better contract n all despite it being a ch 11 under theirs they lost a lot more and depending on the person's age the buyout was either good or bad i dont know when but i think may be now might be a good time for all of us union people to come together and send strong messages to mgmt enough is enough get us a contract a decent livable one and for them to stop talking anthr airline and their unions til a merger happens

Wings, it's really tough to figure out which union sucks worse. The TWU negotiated better wages while in bankruptcy than the IAM did in the JCBA outside bankruptcy. The TWU also has more scope [amazing isn't it since the TWU gave up tons of stations] as the IAM only has scope that protects about a dozen class 1 stations from being outsourced. TWU has company ownership once the company leaves bankruptcy [4.7%?], profit sharing, 401k. IAM members have a pimped off defined benefit [which was small before the pimping], no ownership. no profit sharing. nothing. But in all of my years, I have never, ever saw a union rape members like the IAM raped us airways fleet service. NO UNION on the US AIRWAYS property raped its members like the IAM raped fleet. Seniority cleansing for those who got laid off was total B&%&** and more anti union than the worst republican. Class 2 pay was an abomination. Never, ever have we seen such things, certainly not at non union delta either. And scope, what a joke. As far as the employees 'uniting', not with these two management unions. If we had a union where we could see where the union ended and management began then maybe, but that isn't the case. The union bosses would never want us united and would never approve some of the legal solidarity models that Dr Martin Luther King Jr employed. These union leaders really don't even give a damn about labor or the union itself. If anyone can use any of their actions as witness against this then please do. regards,

 

[ograc]

I just don't think that now is the time for our union to get all uppity and making demands , we should do all that we can possibly do to help secure this merger and talk of strike is unwarrnted.

I suppose, with that attitude, if US told you they needed you to jumo off a bridge in order to help secure this merger, you would do it. Talk of strike is certainly warranted. It's part of the negotiation process. Don't be scared.

 

[Jester]

I'm goign to assume that your number is correct, I honestly don't know. What you're failing to mention (or realize, not sure which) is that it is correct only if we either do not increase it in our new CBA or fail to get our new CBA negotiated. I also believe you are still misrepresenting the fact that these statements only apply to FUTURE benefits. Everyone is at the current rate. If I retire at the end of the year and am due $600/month at $83(?)/month, that's what I get. If I retire at the end of 2014 and my benefit is reduced to (whatever it is but say) $45/month I'll get $645/month.

Are you sure about those numbers?

If you were West, that means you didn't come to the IAM contract until mid-2009 (?), which means in 2014 that's only 5.5 years, or approximately $450/month. I doubt you would get all prior years since the merger of the two airlines, not to mention, any time while America West. About the only thing is that you have now is plenty of years for vesting purposes after 5 years, as you have been with the Company for 13 years?

 

[freedom]

I'm not scared oragc, nor am I angry ..... Without anger I don't even see how you could seriously talk strike , most workers that I know are OK with our current situation today , do we want more ? Of course , but are we willing to throw the monkey wrench into the machine during this delicate time ? No .

This merger NEEDS to happen and there is a lot of support for it here .

 

[robbedagain]

freedom as far as what you said about now is not the time then when will? are most of those workers you know ok with the current situation bec theyre straight from america worst most the folks i know and thats a mix of hp/us in my station would vote for a strike if it were taken today enough is enough and for the mgmt to actually go behind our backs is not just an insult but it goes to show they have no intentions of settlin with us period plain n simple
tim.. i know wings personally as we worked together for yrs before we got uprooted... as for the union that sucks more,, it depends on who you talk to and what they say etc... my friend/neighbor who was with aa for over 30 yrs says if you put the twu with the iam the iam would win despite what we been thru he says it dont say much for either union but to them our contract is better i do agree though with you tim things do need to change and change better and fast

 

[ograc]

I'm not scared oragc, nor am I angry ..... Without anger I don't even see how you could seriously talk strike , most workers that I know are OK with our current situation today , do we want more ? Of course , but are we willing to throw the monkey wrench into the machine during this delicate time ? No .

This merger NEEDS to happen and there is a lot of support for it here .

This merger needs to happen? At what cost? More importantly at who's cost? If it's going to cost many their jobs and livelihoods I would doubt those affected would support it. If it's going to mean countless members will work at below industry average wages and benefits for years while the merged carrier reaps millions in profits I believe many will not support it... nor should they under those terms. I understand the survivability in a competitive industry argument, however, this merger should not be paid for with further concessions, job loss and wage/benefit stagnation for years by the combined workgroups. I believe we have sacrificed enough.

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

Tim,the vaunted 'Me Too' had a drop dead date on it.IIRC it was either 60 days or 6 months after exiting chapter 11.

 

[ograc]

SO TRUE ORGAC I KNEW THE COMPANY LOVES TO DRAG THEIR PAWS IN THIS BUT AGAIN SOMETHING SHOULD BE DONE THOUGH RIGHT

Agreed. Being stuck with a company who only wants to commit to once a month negotiations is getting us nowhere. In fact, the way things are progressing, we're going to be a day late and a dollar short. Just what the company has had in mind all along. Frustrating.

 

[mike33]

I'm not scared oragc, nor am I angry ..... Without anger I don't even see how you could seriously talk strike , most workers that I know are OK with our current situation today , do we want more ? Of course , but are we willing to throw the monkey wrench into the machine during this delicate time ? No .

This merger NEEDS to happen and there is a lot of support for it here .

Thats because you are passive and there is really nothing wrong with that ! In certain situations. This is not one of those situations. You may not remember the sacrifices, but there were many. I would love to have you work in my company and pay you 20% below what ur worth. Its about money to this company and most things are...... You settle with out a fight and proclaim your want whilst the whole time defending why you shouldnt get it!..... USAir loves employees like that.