Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nevergiveup]

Crack a book, actually THE book:

Proverbs 26:26, Matthew 10:26, Luke 8:17. YES, all of our actions are on record (mine too). If you don't believe, so be it. If you do, I would be truly concerned if I were you.

The Leonidas site has never gone down, nor gone away. The forum that is attached to that is there for ANY US Airways pilot that wishes to discuss our issues out in the open. It is the place where you can read all of the Nicolau award & all of the legal filings is this paper chase to Date of Hire. Come and visit us: www.cactuspilot.com

Clips you say? How about all the clips in PHX where Bradford comes out to tell us that USAPA will have a NEW seniority list based on DOH? It also includes Lee Seham: https://www.youtube....h?v=-xO8PnZWWnE

CB

I like Proverbs 21:9

 

[cleardirect]

Getting a new contract and a pay raise for all is a LUP. The ninth said we probably cannot get that with the NIC. Therefore, using something other than the NIC that will benefit all, is in my book, a LUP.

So that is your LUP? What the ninth said.

To bad for usapa they needed an LUP BEFORE attempting to avoid the Nicolau the first time.

What was the LUP for not using the Nicolau May 2005?

 

[end_of_alpa]

I would encourage all pilots to participate in the forum over at cactuspilot.com. It has always been west centric and even the east ALPA supporters outnumber the east USAPA supporters. But the cite is well moderated, only LCC pilots can participate and everyone's real identity is known.

Which means that the kind of mud slinging which takes place here on a regular basis is avoided.

I think the reason some of us continue to engage here and elsewhere is to maintain some semblence of dialogue, however tenuous, with the each other - which is constructive.

USAPA made a bad decision not to erect its own pilot forum. Pilots can't help but to engage each other, whether in crew rooms or virtual crew rooms.

I'll even expound further on why I came back to post. I believe that everyone hat has even any cursory interest in how pilots REALLY act need go no further than this forum. Just a few posts ago an outsider expressed their view of our lack of civil discourse.

They need to know that if East and West ever get together it won't be by agreement it will be by force. And that will make for very bad blood coming from the West because the legal situation is gut wrenching. If any non-USAIrways person has any interest in the fight I encourage them to go to the www.cactuspilot.com and read the voluminous load of documents that prove one thing. Get a contract so you can sue.

There is no West pilot who supports a contract with DOH/ w conditions and restrictions because there is no West pilot that cares about time. For them, the race is to the front of the line as fast as they can go without any meaningful continuity. They've been promised and if you're an East pilot you're broken your word (even though no vote was taken) and are automatically ranked lower than the Continental pilots who crossed the picket line.

In the grand scheme of things the reality is truly meaningless to the casual observer....you have to be here to live it.

USAPA made a GOOD decision not to have a forum. Why? It made you confront your "accuser" face to face and see if they'll call you a scab on the spot. Going to a USAPA BPR meeting is "barely" manageable and the ability to call the cops and have them be there in a very short amount of time is what gives this "civil" discourse new meaning.

Listening to the West pilots over there is one thing, listening to CM or he who shall not be named and his ilk is simply against my grain.

 

[end_of_alpa]

So that is your LUP? What the ninth said.

To bad for usapa they needed an LUP BEFORE attempting to avoid the Nicolau the first time.

What was the LUP for not using the Nicolau May 2005?

Wouldn't vote for a contract with the Nicolau award in it. Could that be why we got a new union?

Enjoy your holiday.

 

[cleardirect]

I hear the APA TA deal passed by better than 95%, let's hope we don't merge. http://aviationblog....econd-try.html/ Luv this part, "The pilots on Aug. 8 had rejected a previous proposal, known as American’s “last, best and final offer,” Looks like another bad day for Dougie!!!

Again you prove my point. when you say "I hear" it really means you lie.

Are you just incapable of even telling the truth? Here is a chance to covey simple information and you have to lie about easily checked facts.

Clearing a major hurdle in the bankruptcy proceeding for the corporate parent of American Airlines, more than 7,400 pilots voted in favor of the proposed deal by 74% to 26%.

It passed by 74% not 95%.

 

[cleardirect]

USAPA leverage: seniority solution over a contract solution. Without that premise integration is problematic.

"Horton also said that costs of a combined airline are hard to gauge because of labor uncertainty at US Airways, and that such uncertainty should be reason to give AMR creditors more equity as compensation for the risks related to combining the two airlines’ workforces."

http://www.dallasnew...tial-merger.ece

US Airways management could be locked out of any merger in the near term in any case.

Stagnation PHX.

Attrition and some growth in CLT, PHL and DCA.

Status quo, Dave. Enjoy the BPR meeting next week.

So what you are saying is that when deals are made equities are balanced.

Since there is uncertainty with cost at US Airways american should get more equity.

Like what Roland Wilder said about seniority. Since the east contract is so inferior that is balanced against seniority. Just like Nicolau did. Just like the next arbitrator will do.

what the east wants id 95% of the contract and 95% of seniority. Not a balanced equation.

 

[cleardirect]

Here is what the rest of the industry knows about your America West operation. Nothing has changed. This is what all airline families know about your history. How things have not changed. You are still trying to take jobs you never earned. It is your legacy.


I encourage all of you with an interest in seeing Australia and doing some very interesting flying in this "Land Down Under", to contact the flight manager's office or contact any one of the people who have seen the situation FIRST HAND for the straight story. Of course, I am not so naive as to think that the pilots at America West who insist on stirring the foul smelling bucket of discontent will take the time, but I am sure they couldn't see the forest for the trees anyway.
It is also worthy to mention that we at America West owe a great deal to
Ansett Airlines and Sir Peter Abeles. We have benefited from a large
amount of equipment from them (much of which was purchased at below market rates) and, also, we have a very large percentage of our company's stock in their hands that needs to be protected from the Donald Trumps of the world. I might also mention that the Australian operation contributes a sizable chunk to our bottom line. We will likely see an increase to our fleet size as a direct result, and we are surely putting ourselves in a position to someday have 747 service into Sydney and Melbourne.
Love him or hate him, Mike Conway is right about this, "We cannot afford to make policy and run this company based on the Jumpseat." His words not mine.
But, I agree and support his decision to send us to Australia. I am proud of the accomplishments we made and the professional manner with which we made them. Ansett Airlines has learned a lot from us about operating a deregulated airline.

The westerners cannot get it through their skulls the Nicolau is not going to be used. It does not have to be. There will be no harm. They are stuck in 2005. That was almost 8 years ago. It just does not matter. The only harm will be as a result of their stubborn refusal to face reality and get stuck in the desert. Time has moved on without them. The mentality is honestly stone aged.

Pick a side will you. In one post you say that the west is stuck yet 2 posts later you post something 15-20 years ago. time has moved on without you.

BTW why are you posting? You are not a pilot for US Airways or did you lie about that?

 

[Phoenix]

Again you prove my point. when you say "I hear" it really means you lie.

Are you just incapable of even telling the truth? Here is a chance to covey simple information and you have to lie about easily checked facts.




It passed by 74% not 95%.

You see liars everywhere. Just because the paranoids say they aren't after you it doesn't mean they aren't lying.

96% of the eligible pilots voted (info that wasn't yet published when he made his "lying post" based on slightly incomplete info he was apparently told, but you did't disclose that).

Does that mean you are a liar by your own standard? No need to condemn yourself, I don't, but you could clarify your equivocation and misrepresentation to repent and all that.

 

[Phoenix]

So that is your LUP? What the ninth said.

To bad for usapa they needed an LUP BEFORE attempting to avoid the Nicolau the first time.

What was the LUP for not using the Nicolau May 2005?

They don't need anything BEFORE anything. The company and the union are free to negotiate anything they wish, and they can take your doomsday council under advisement before they do anything if they wish, or not. Free is free, otherwise you wouldn't be in hyper persuade mode trying to convince everyone that free really means bound.

 

[luvthe9]

Again you prove my point. when you say "I hear" it really means you lie.

Are you just incapable of even telling the truth? Here is a chance to covey simple information and you have to lie about easily checked facts.




It passed by 74% not 95%.

Yes Clear, that was my mistake, happy now?

 

[Piedmont1984]

I'll even expound further on why I came back to post. I believe that everyone hat has even any cursory interest in how pilots REALLY act need go no further than this forum. Just a few posts ago an outsider expressed their view of our lack of civil discourse.

They need to know that if East and West ever get together it won't be by agreement it will be by force. And that will make for very bad blood coming from the West because the legal situation is gut wrenching. If any non-USAIrways person has any interest in the fight I encourage them to go to the www.cactuspilot.com and read the voluminous load of documents that prove one thing. Get a contract so you can sue.

I don't think a non USAirways person can access that website, certainly not the forum.

There is no West pilot who supports a contract with DOH/ w conditions and restrictions because there is no West pilot that cares about time. For them, the race is to the front of the line as fast as they can go without any meaningful continuity. They've been promised and if you're an East pilot you're broken your word (even though no vote was taken) and are automatically ranked lower than the Continental pilots who crossed the picket line.

The regular suspects who post here represent less than 1% of the pilot group. The lurkers and silent majority, on both sides, cannot be as easily stereotyped.

USAPA made a GOOD decision not to have a forum. Why? It made you confront your "accuser" face to face and see if they'll call you a scab on the spot. Going to a USAPA BPR meeting is "barely" manageable and the ability to call the cops and have them be there in a very short amount of time is what gives this "civil" discourse new meaning.

It isn't about mano y mano confrontations in the terminal or on the jetway or hotel van.

Listening to the West pilots over there is one thing, listening to CM or he who shall not be named and his ilk is simply against my grain.

CM is representative of a group of east pilots who feel it was a mistake to jettison ALPA. We may not agree with them but they are entitled to their opinion.

 

[Phoenix]

CM is representative of a group of east pilots who feel it was a mistake to jettison ALPA. We may not agree with them but they are entitled to their opinion.

There is probably nothing that he would like more than to be viewed as a pilot representative, but I have never met anyone in person who would say they think he speaks for them or identifies with them. I will be kind and not mention the typical response I see and hear on the line when his name is mentioned in polite company.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I don't think a non USAirways person can access that website, certainly not the forum.

When I was on it it was only pilots and real names and I believe that hasn't changed. But I like THIS forum because it proves that pilots are no different than anybody else.

The regular suspects who post here represent less than 1% of the pilot group. The lurkers and silent majority, on both sides, cannot be as easily stereotyped.

I disagree (respectfully). People from time immemorial have sat in the stands and watched the "gladiators" fight. Maybe the forums are the new stadium of Internet entertainment. Who am I to judge what you like to follow....but I DO know the union AND the company follow this forum.

It isn't about mano y mano confrontations in the terminal or on the jetway or hotel van.

It shouldn't be but given our history it has happened and stranger things elsewhere. Why should we be any different?

CM is representative of a group of east pilots who feel it was a mistake to jettison ALPA. We may not agree with them but they are entitled to their opinion.

They certainly are entitled to their opinion. But the opinions from all the differently merged groups here give us the look of Frankenstein's monster. Like a patient with a heart/lung/kidney transplant the "drug" we have to live with is the company. That is the only thing we have in common. We have opinions and those opinions reveal such a wide and diverse perspective that we are unable to function cohesively as a group.

It does not matter whether we're ALPA, USAPA or teamsters. If and until we ever become part of such a larger group where the numbers of East and West combined are so infinitesimally small will our current issue be resolved. With APA and us combined this issue will still not be sufficient in size to resolve the dilemma.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Usapa is an outfit, not a union. That's why it's never had a forum. How many outfits have forums? I think it is that simple. Well meaning and honorable people try to do there best as representatives, volunteers and such, and I don't mean that as a slur against them. However, there is no way any reasonable pilots, east or west, will ever be allowed to bring usapa at large from outfit status to union status.

I suppose it's fine that some east pilots think that by not having the Nic they've 'won.' I can see the logic, I get it. So this isn't sour grapes when I say this, but I don't think usapa is very becoming of any of us on either property. It's an embarrasment.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Usapa is an outfit, not a union. That's why it's never had a forum. How many outfits have forums?

Define "outfit".
By outfit, do you mean "too many captains and not enough pilots"? Now that I can agree with.