Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cactusboy53]

BTW Dave, several of your West brothers on here call us scabs. Do the pilots in PHX all agree with that? Do you think we're scabs?

If you're talking about reality and honesty will you answer that question or are you too fearful.

Do you and the constituents think East pilots are scabs....yes or no?

Do you personally think East pilots are scabs? Yes or no (bet you can't be honest)

Generally (of the staunch USAPA supporters / enablers), yes I think they do. Both of our properties even have people that are listed on the MSL, and I think we all know who they are.

Merriam-Webster defines "scab" as the following:


a : a contemptible person
b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

While USAPA supporters don't really meet the definitions listed in "b" completely, they have taken our industry to a place it has NEVER been before.

Our contemporaries (and even National carriers) are making tremendously more than we are. We SHOULD now be in our second post-merger contract just like Delta.

While USAPA claims they can change seniority in a snap, we are now 1695 days into USAPA's promises. The lawyer that said DOH was a slam-dunk is now gone.

If you were made to pay union dues that were used to try and cheat you directly (vs the East's assertion that ALPA & Nicolau purposefully harmed your pilot group), and had to pony up funds to defend your legal rights in court against your collective bargaining agent.....how do you suppose you would feel?

Honestly, I don't hold ill will against these people. I am social, polite and engaging with all of my fellow BPR officers, but I am there to serve and protect my pilot group. I don't think the East pilot group meets the "b" definition of "scab", but many of these people certainly are contemptible.

CB

 

[Phoenix]

...
It passed by 74% not 95%.

The point was it passed.

BOS 84% yes 16% no
DCA 78% yes 22% no
DFW 79% yes 21% no
LAX 66% yes 34% no
LGA 64% yes 36% no
MIA 67% yes 33% no
ORD 86% yes 14% no
SLT 81% yes 19% no

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Define "outfit".
By outfit, do you mean "too many captains and not enough pilots"? Now that I can agree with.

The wrong people with their hands on the reigns. People willing to resort to chickenshit methods to get what they are after. RICO for instance. If the RICO had been fleshed out, out in the open, it would never have happened. It could only have happened in the shadows, with the proper cover story for the masses.

It's gotten a little friendlier since then, but make no mistake, it's still the same idea. Forums have no place within usapa, they never will.

 

[Phoenix]

Generally (of the staunch USAPA supporters / enablers), yes I think they do. Both of our properties even have people that are listed on the MSL, and I think we all know who they are.

Merriam-Webster defines "scab" as the following:


a : a contemptible person
b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

While USAPA supporters don't really meet the definitions listed in "b" completely, they have taken our industry to a place it has NEVER been before.

Our contemporaries (and even National carriers) are making tremendously more than we are. We SHOULD now be in our second post-merger contract just like Delta.

While USAPA claims they can change seniority in a snap, we are now 1695 days into USAPA's promises. The lawyer that said DOH was a slam-dunk is now gone.

If you were made to pay union dues that were used to try and cheat you directly (vs the East's assertion that ALPA & Nicolau purposefully harmed your pilot group), and had to pony up funds to defend your legal rights in court against your collective bargaining agent.....how do you suppose you would feel?

Honestly, I don't hold ill will against these people. I am social, polite and engaging with all of my fellow BPR officers, but I am there to serve and protect my pilot group. I don't think the East pilot group meets the "b" definition of "scab", but many of these people certainly are contemptible.

CB

Any rep that engages in scab talk is entitled to his opinion. One that prefers to call fellow pilots contemptible rather than the company after all these years that they have refused to negotiate or provide equal pay for equal work, and now leave West pilots on furlough while they retire West pilots....

 

[end_of_alpa]

Usapa is an outfit, not a union. That's why it's never had a forum. How many outfits have forums? I think it is that simple. Well meaning and honorable people try to do there best as representatives, volunteers and such, and I don't mean that as a slur against them. However, there is no way any reasonable pilots, east or west, will ever be allowed to bring usapa at large from outfit status to union status.

I suppose it's fine that some east pilots think that by not having the Nic they've 'won.' I can see the logic, I get it. So this isn't sour grapes when I say this, but I don't think usapa is very becoming of any of us on either property. It's an embarrasment.

I've said that in maybe a different way, but I agree with you. With the enormous differences we have your point of being an "outfit" could take on the definition of a military unit. We're pilots, we just can't seem to agree on the qualifications for "leadership". And that, sir, is the real crux of the matter. We all are still coming to work for the compensation were getting is now all we have and we should be very thankful for at least that.

Enjoy the holiday.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Generally (of the staunch USAPA supporters / enablers), yes I think they do. Both of our properties even have people that are listed on the MSL, and I think we all know who they are.

Merriam-Webster defines "scab" as the following:


a : a contemptible person
b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

While USAPA supporters don't really meet the definitions listed in "b" completely, they have taken our industry to a place it has NEVER been before.

Our contemporaries (and even National carriers) are making tremendously more than we are. We SHOULD now be in our second post-merger contract just like Delta.

While USAPA claims they can change seniority in a snap, we are now 1695 days into USAPA's promises. The lawyer that said DOH was a slam-dunk is now gone.

If you were made to pay union dues that were used to try and cheat you directly (vs the East's assertion that ALPA & Nicolau purposefully harmed your pilot group), and had to pony up funds to defend your legal rights in court against your collective bargaining agent.....how do you suppose you would feel?

Honestly, I don't hold ill will against these people. I am social, polite and engaging with all of my fellow BPR officers, but I am there to serve and protect my pilot group. I don't think the East pilot group meets the "b" definition of "scab", but many of these people certainly are contemptible.

CB

So the answer is "yes". Just say it.

BTW, you said many are "a". Which "many" specifically? Like, you mean me? Maybe the Leadership?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I would encourage all pilots to participate in the forum over at cactuspilot.com. It has always been west centric and even the east ALPA supporters outnumber the east USAPA supporters. But the cite is well moderated, only LCC pilots can participate and everyone's real identity is known.

Which means that the kind of mud slinging which takes place here on a regular basis is avoided.

I think the reason some of us continue to engage here and elsewhere is to maintain some semblence of dialogue, however tenuous, with the each other - which is constructive.

USAPA made a bad decision not to erect its own pilot forum. Pilots can't help but to engage each other, whether in crew rooms or virtual crew rooms.

Appreciate your goodwill, doesn't go unoticed, but the ole cliche, Whoever controls the media, controls the mind”
― Jim Morrison

 

[cactusboy53]

I like Proverbs 21:9

That one doesn't work so well with typical airline pilots. There are many of us that would require multiple dwellings as we may have more than one quarrelsome wife. ;-)

 

[end_of_alpa]

Appreciate your goodwill, doesn't go unoticed, but the ole cliche, Whoever controls the media, controls the mind”
― Jim Morrison

"Riders on the storm..." Into this house were born....

Need I say more.

 

[cactusboy53]

So the answer is "yes". Just say it.

BTW, you said many are "a". Which "many" specifically? Like, you mean me? Maybe the Leadership?

Directed at the people that seek to do us harm (personal, financial, etc.) by ANY and ALL means. People that sick lawyers on us for trumped up charges (think false witness). People that jumpseat and proceed to report to manager pilots about what he/she said they witnessed from flight crew. It's not a very long list, but it does seem to be growing.

While the West defends our position (out of our own pocket), Parker and LCC make hay of our separate contracts. Again, we could be on our SECOND contract now. Money, time off & contract improvements never to be recovered. Delay is USAPA's only win.

 

[nevergiveup]

Generally (of the staunch USAPA supporters / enablers), yes I think they do. Both of our properties even have people that are listed on the MSL, and I think we all know who they are.

Merriam-Webster defines "scab" as the following:


a : a contemptible person
b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

While USAPA supporters don't really meet the definitions listed in "b" completely, they have taken our industry to a place it has NEVER been before.

Our contemporaries (and even National carriers) are making tremendously more than we are. We SHOULD now be in our second post-merger contract just like Delta.

While USAPA claims they can change seniority in a snap, we are now 1695 days into USAPA's promises. The lawyer that said DOH was a slam-dunk is now gone.

If you were made to pay union dues that were used to try and cheat you directly (vs the East's assertion that ALPA & Nicolau purposefully harmed your pilot group), and had to pony up funds to defend your legal rights in court against your collective bargaining agent.....how do you suppose you would feel?

Honestly, I don't hold ill will against these people. I am social, polite and engaging with all of my fellow BPR officers, but I am there to serve and protect my pilot group. I don't think the East pilot group meets the "b" definition of "scab", but many of these people certainly are contemptible.

CB

It is true for both sides.

 

[EastUS1]

time has moved on without you.

Consider that thought a bit further....exclusively from PHX.

 

[EastUS1]

Delay is USAPA's only win.

That assumes the usual and entirely faith-based fantasy of ultimate and unquestionable "nictory" for the west, which I feel to be a highly unlikely outcome. While we're discussing any "win" though; what's AOL's greatest claims to high scalp counts been.....ever? 2 million down the toilet for a dismissed proceeding?

cactusboy53: "Again, we could be on our SECOND contract now." Much like the FA's perhaps? Has it EVER even occurred to any of you out west that your ingloriously failed litigation has served management as some BS "justification" for their never-ending delays? Don't ever hand any "weapon" to your adversay and later whine about the results of doing so. Such behavior is past all accepted definitions of pathetic. The whole west approach has amounted to nothing more than a dysfunctional and epic failure in a real-world intelligence test. Try and spin it all as you wish otherwise, if you feel the need.

cactusboy53: "While the West defends our position (out of our own pocket).." Does your astounding and very-well-established sense of entitlement afford you an enhanced fantasy that includes the notion that others "owe" you anything, or should fund your "heroic" pursuit of your selfish nic fantasies? That last, regarding the notions of others naturally "owing" you anything/everything is a purely rhetorical "question" whenever dealing with your bunch.

 

[cactusboy53]

Any rep that engages in scab talk is entitled to his opinion. One that prefers to call fellow pilots contemptible rather than the company after all these years that they have refused to negotiate or provide equal pay for equal work, and now leave West pilots on furlough while they retire West pilots....

Commander S;
It's NOT the company's fault. They KNOW that until the seniority issue is resolved (it actually is - one party refuses to abide by the arbitrated decision), there is their opinion that negotiating anything is pointless. They have used this and played USAPA like a well worn Charlie Daniels fiddle.

USAPA (& the AAA MEC) are the reasons that we didn't get to a first contract with ALPA. USAPA is the reason that we still don't have a contract (let alone a second post merger contract like DAL).

The blame game is getting really old:

• It's ALPA's fault
• It's Nicolau's fault
• It's the West's fault
• It's the NMB's fault
• It's the company's fault
• It's..............

1695 days since the inception of the union to end all unions. The gold standard in keeping major airline pilot wages at historic lows. A dismal failure to be sure (except for the attrition captured at regional pilot wages - excellent!).

 

[end_of_alpa]

Directed at the people that seek to do us harm (personal, financial, etc.) by ANY and ALL means. People that sick lawyers on us for trumped up charges (think false witness). People that jumpseat and proceed to report to manager pilots about what he/she said they witnessed from flight crew. It's not a very long list, but it does seem to be growing.

While the West defends our position (out of our own pocket), Parker and LCC make hay of our separate contracts. Again, we could be on our SECOND contract now. Money, time off & contract improvements never to be recovered. Delay is USAPA's only win.

Commander S;
It's NOT the company's fault. They KNOW that until the seniority issue is resolved (it actually is - one party refuses to abide by the arbitrated decision), there is their opinion that negotiating anything is pointless. They have used this and played USAPA like a well worn Charlie Daniels fiddle.

USAPA (& the AAA MEC) are the reasons that we didn't get to a first contract with ALPA. USAPA is the reason that we still don't have a contract (let alone a second post merger contract like DAL).

The blame game is getting really old:

• It's ALPA's fault
• It's Nicolau's fault
• It's the West's fault
• It's the NMB's fault
• It's the company's fault
• It's..............

1695 days since the inception of the union to end all unions. The gold standard in keeping major airline pilot wages at historic lows. A dismal failure to be sure (except for the attrition captured at regional pilot wages - excellent!).

I'm not blaming anyone. You and I simply disagree and the choices a few West pilots did at the beginning of USAPA caused USAPA to certainly cast a wider net than necessary which embroiled you into the courts. It may have not been justified in your eyes but the die has been cast.

The question for YOU is where do YOU go from here. The "we" is part of the diaspora we have here is still anyone's guess but I say the labor union is in decline and the consequences we will all live with.

Enjoy the holiday.