Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

Forgive me. But "the new concept" of a LUO isn't new. It's been around Since the dawn of unionism and is enshrined into Federal Law. Wake flatly stated you didn't have a LUO, Silver has more than eluded to the same, and the dissenting 9th opinion couldn't have been more clear that USAPA failed to prove a Legitimate Union Objective for ignoring the NIc. The other two Judges decided to not discuss it as it wasn't ripe..(according to them)...aside to warn of an unquestionably ripe dfr.

So What is the LOU you so desperately need. I ask again as you so obviously evaded the question.

There is no LUO needed to bargain. Bargaining is the responsibility of the union. There is no LCO (legitimate court objective ) that prevents the union from bargaining "whatever seniority list they wish". LUO or not, the West class has no right to the courts apart from a ratified contract. Patience, grasshopper.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Metro just said: "Forgive me. But "the new concept" of a LUO isn't new. It's been around Since the dawn of unionism and is enshrined into Federal Law. Wake flatly stated you didn't have a LUO, Silver has more than eluded to the same, and the dissenting 9th opinion couldn't have been more clear that USAPA failed to prove a Legitimate Union Objective for ignoring the NIc. The other two Judges decided to not discuss it as it wasn't ripe..(according to them)...aside to warn of an unquestionably ripe dfr."

So What is the LOU you so desperately need. I ask again as you so obviously evaded the question. "

Please quote us the case law for past successful union related DFR's that use the term LUO. Where is it "enshrined in Federal Law?" Wake has no say, he was slapped hard and all his work dismissed. Marty and Silver still continue to use the term, yet it has no precedence other than at some high end membership golf club in Tempe.

Your "warnings" continue, yet we proceed. Sooner or later you have to put your cards on the table, and cease with the bravado. After over 7 years…..oh never mind.

Greeter

 

[Metroyet]

Metro just said: "Forgive me. But "the new concept" of a LUO isn't new. It's been around Since the dawn of unionism and is enshrined into Federal Law. Wake flatly stated you didn't have a LUO, Silver has more than eluded to the same, and the dissenting 9th opinion couldn't have been more clear that USAPA failed to prove a Legitimate Union Objective for ignoring the NIc. The other two Judges decided to not discuss it as it wasn't ripe..(according to them)...aside to warn of an unquestionably ripe dfr."

So What is the LOU you so desperately need. I ask again as you so obviously evaded the question. "

Please quote us the case law for past successful union related DFR's that use the term LUO. Where is it "enshrined in Federal Law?" Wake has no say, he was slapped hard and all his work dismissed. Marty and Silver still continue to use the term, yet it has no precedence other than at some high end membership golf club in Tempe.

Your "warnings" continue, yet we proceed. Sooner or later you have to put your cards on the table, and cease with the bravado. After over 7 years…..oh never mind.

Greeter

If that's an honest question, you really have no business publically displaying your ignorance. Silver required one...she didn't pull the term out of her ass. Look into it.

 

[Metroyet]

There is no LUO needed to bargain. Bargaining is the responsibility of the union. There is no LCO (legitimate court objective ) that prevents the union from bargaining "whatever seniority list they wish". LUO or not, the West class has no right to the courts apart from a ratified contract. Patience, grasshopper.

OK. Keep paying dues to a "union" that bargains with the full knowledge that they'll never get anywhere. That's what you've got now. LOA 93 until the end of time...or the end of USAPA...which given the merger machinations, I'd expect sooner rather than later.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

If that's an honest question, you really have no business publically displaying your ignorance. Silver required one...she didn't pull the term out of her ass. Look into it.

The honorable judge can say what she wants, despite your rude comments about her anatomy. She does not and will never set any standard at the Federal level for a DFR unless she is ruling on one. She was not, and her warnings are only fodder for an actual case. Show me. Quote some union DFR case law with LUO.Greeter

 

[Metroyet]

The honorable judge can say what she wants, despite your rude comments about her anatomy. She does not and will never set any standard at the Federal level for a DFR unless she is ruling on one. She was not, and her warnings are only fodder for an actual case. Show me. Quote some union DFR case law with LUO.Greeter

Here you go Cupcake. After this pro bono, I'll have to start charging. Before you get too excited, just know that Self Hostage Taking has already been determined to NOT be a legitimate or rational basis.

Under the legitimate or rational basis standard, unions must be able to articulate
and prove a legitimate or rational basis for their conduct. A typical example of
this is the Second Circuit Court case, N LR B v. T eamsters, L ocal 2 8 2 . In this case,
the court affirmed a NLRB decision that a union had violated its duty of fair
representation by failing to effectively communicate the terms of an arbitration
award to all of its employees. The court stated that “The union’s failure to inform
its members of their obligations to protect their positions was an act of omission
which ... was so egregious, so far short of minimum standards of fairness to the
employees, and so unrelated to legitimate union interests as to be arbitrary.” In
short, the court said that the DFR was violated because there was no rational
explanation for the union’s conduct.

Does the bold print sound like anybody you know?

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Here you go Cupcake. After this pro bono, I'll have to start charging. Before you get too excited, just know that Self Hostage Taking has already been determined to NOT be a legitimate or rational basis.

Under the legitimate or rational basis standard, unions must be able to articulate
and prove a legitimate or rational basis for their conduct. A typical example of
this is the Second Circuit Court case, N LR B v. T eamsters, L ocal 2 8 2 . In this case,
the court affirmed a NLRB decision that a union had violated its duty of fair
representation by failing to effectively communicate the terms of an arbitration
award to all of its employees. The court stated that "The union's failure to inform
its members of their obligations to protect their positions was an act of omission
which ... was so egregious, so far short of minimum standards of fairness to the
employees, and so unrelated to legitimate union interests as to be arbitrary." In
short, the court said that the DFR was violated because there was no rational
explanation for the union's conduct.

Does the bold print sound like anybody you know?

DATES and entire text please cupcake. I can google also.Greeter.

 

[Metroyet]

DATES and entire text please cupcake. I can google also.Greeter.

No point. No information will ever allow you to believe that you're not entitled to Arbitrarily, Discriminate against the West. Wake showed you your future...you still don't believe it even though it happened right in front of you....yeah. I know. Ripeness. If that's what you're hanging your hat on to rationalize 15+ years on LOA 93 only to end up with the Nic...be my guest.

 

[Phoenix]

OK. ....

Indeed.

 

[cleardirect]

Ah! I see that you're evidently in favor of this attempt as well...That's good to know. 😉 Umm...perhaps you can explain what you wish to see happen if it succeeded? No Tap-Dancing allowed here if you wish to convince people. This oughta' be good. Go ahead, we're all waiting......?

Where did I give my opinion of the CLT recall?

I don't care what you people do.

My comment was to your underwhelmed comment. The C&BL says 25% is all anyone needs to recall a rep. If you don't like that part of the constitution change it but that is all that is required.

I am so impressed that you are waiting to hear what I have to say. Did not realize that I was that important to you? Because I sure don't care what you have to say.

 

[Claxon]

I know. Ripeness. If that's what you're hanging your hat on to rationalize 15+ years on LOA 93 only to end up with the Nic...be my guest.

You love talking about loa 93. America West pilots have been dragging down the industry since their inception in 1983 with wages 50 percent of other pilots and no retirement.
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2011%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Compensation/Pilots/Average%20Annual%20Wages%20and%20Salaries%20-%20PILOT%20AND%20CO-PILOT%20PERSONNEL.htm

You use the work scab with no links;

http://scabsr.us/duw1.htm

Then you question the East pilots integrity, with no links.

http://www.darkreading.com/database-security/167901020/security/attacks-breaches/229401204/thousands-of-us-airways-pilots-victims-of-possible-insider-data-breach.html

"In 1986, Patrick Thurston, Vice President of Operations, America West, Bob Russell, Chief of Pilots, and Carl Wobser, a captain, all pleaded guilty to multiple counts of narcotics trafficking. THE PHOENIX-BANGKOK HEROIN CONNECTION

The airline's rapid growth continued in 1986, with the airline greatly expanding its fleet, primarily with Boeing 757s purchased from Northwest Airlines after Northwest bought out Republic Airlines, as well as the acquisition of a number of De Havilland Canada Dash 8 aircraft for local service from Phoenix and Las Vegas.

Also in 1986, the airline started running red-eye flights from Las Vegas to increase aircraft utilization.

The rapid growth of America West resulted in large operating losses for the airline, and by 1986 the company was on the verge of bankruptcy. Originally slated to occupy the vast majority of the gates in the under-construction Terminal 4, America West had to reduce its commitment to the city of Phoenix to just 28 gates, with the growing Southwest Airlines agreeing to lease the remainder of Terminal 4. In August 1987 a unit of Ansett Transport Industries Ltd.[3] , an Australian airline company and at the time 50% owned by News Corporation, purchased a 21.6 percent stake in America West. Despite revenue problems, America West continued its growth, with a rebuffed attempted buyout of Eastern Air Lines "shuttle" division in 1988.

As 1989 opened the airline explored destinations beyond the United States, America West filed with Department of Transportation for a Phoenix to Sydney route, to connect with now defunct Ansett Airlines. However the proposal was rejected and the Reagan Administration awarded the route to another airline.

October 1989. Australian Airline Borrows Jets, Crews From America West. DownunderAmericaWestAmerica West Pilots flew routes in Australia to help break a job action by Australia Pilots.America West Pilots in Australia. America West President Michael Conway said he was "happy to help Ansett and has no sympathy for the Australian pilots who quit their jobs after failing to win huge wage increases--an action that shut down virtually all of that nation's domestic flights." Twenty percent of the stock of AMERICA WEST AIRLINES was owned by ANSETT AIRLINES of Australia at that time."

 

[end_of_alpa]

Here you go Cupcake. After this pro bono, I'll have to start charging. Before you get too excited, just know that Self Hostage Taking has already been determined to NOT be a legitimate or rational basis.

Under the legitimate or rational basis standard, unions must be able to articulate
and prove a legitimate or rational basis for their conduct. A typical example of
this is the Second Circuit Court case, N LR B v. T eamsters, L ocal 2 8 2 . In this case,
the court affirmed a NLRB decision that a union had violated its duty of fair
representation by failing to effectively communicate the terms of an arbitration
award to all of its employees. The court stated that “The union’s failure to inform
its members of their obligations to protect their positions was an act of omission
which ... was so egregious, so far short of minimum standards of fairness to the
employees, and so unrelated to legitimate union interests as to be arbitrary.” In
short, the court said that the DFR was violated because there was no rational
explanation for the union’s conduct.

Does the bold print sound like anybody you know?

How many times have you taken the bar? After 15 years of being a law student you think you would have passed a got a job. None of this case applies to us, pilot lawyer bathroom orderly wannabe.

Your flame contains no heat.

 

[nic4us]

There is no LUO needed to bargain. Bargaining is the responsibility of the union. There is no LCO (legitimate court objective ) that prevents the union from bargaining "whatever seniority list they wish". LUO or not, the West class has no right to the courts apart from a ratified contract. Patience, grasshopper.

Perhaps you should read Silver's ruling again.

Being that there is a federal court ruling telling the company and usapa that there is a LUP needed to protect them from future claims, you can be pretty sure negotiations will go nowhere over seniority. So, indeed you are once again wrong and a LUP is needed to "negotiate". Since usapa has none, and since the company will not be willing to test the unquestionably ripe waters of what constitutes a LUP, and put it's neck on the line for a scab union, you can also bet the NIC will remain the only system seniority list at LCC, and the only list to use in the event of a merger.

Also, you should be schooled on what the 9th ruled in Addington. The requirement for a ratified contract only applies to the narrow situation of determining whether usapa has breached it's DFR IF it changes an already acknowledged seniority list. Usapa stll has the burden of a DFR for any union activity, let's say, failure of per suing West grievances, or discriminating against the West by stealing growth at LCC to advance the east, or maybe for violating the rights of members and kicking them out and baring them from open union meetings.

 

[nic4us]

Your "warnings" continue, yet we proceed. Sooner or later you have to put your cards on the table, and cease with the bravado. After over 7 years…..oh never mind.

Greeter

Our cards have already been turned and are on the table.

We are holding an ace high hybrid DFR and are waiting for usapa to fold.

 

[Bill Brasky]

You westies are dreamers. YOU keep reading stuff into the rulings that clearly wasn't intended. The Nic is DEAD! Better get on with your life. That whole LUP argument is a waste of time for you, so I'd give it up and start looking for ways to improve your position, like some kind of negotiated settlement, if it's not already too late. Legally speaking, a LUP is pretty much anything that furthers the goals or ideals of the union, and since DOH, whether we agree with it or not, was one of USAPA's founding principles (as presented by the west legal team themselves), is all the LUP USAPA needs. Don't count on Judges Wake or Silver to save you from yourselves. Who do you think the AMR guys are going to want in the top spots, Youngsters that will stagnate the entire list for decades, or the group with more longevity which will be more than half gone in 5 years and just about all gone in 10? USAPA has one list alright, and it isn't the Nic!