Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

No point. No information will ever allow you to believe that you're not entitled to Arbitrarily, Discriminate against the West. Wake showed you your future...you still don't believe it even though it happened right in front of you....yeah. I know. Ripeness. If that's what you're hanging your hat on to rationalize 15+ years on LOA 93 only to end up with the Nic...be my guest.

You are right on the money here Metro...

These clowns quote "wide range of reasonableness", yet when it is pointed out that usapa's intentions and rationalizations have already been tried, and failed in past cases where there is precedent saying it is a DFR, they ignore those facts.

When a judge tells them they have to have a LUP, they go hey we won because we have a LUP, it happens to be the same LUP that was found to be a DFR in In the past but hey, we don't care.


Bottom line is, LOA 93 and contract 2004 til we have a NIC inclusive JCBA, or until the West gets the smoking gun that ties the company and usapa in collusion of forcing separate ops in violation of the TA.

Of course there is also the possibility of a merger, wherein the LCC pilots will be at a great disadvantage when the LCC list (I.e the NIC) is combined with the list from the merger partner whose pilots will easily be able to show that the far inferior LOA93 and contract 2004 entitles the LCC pilots to a degraded position in the combined company.

 

[nic4us]

You westies are dreamers. YOU keep reading stuff into the rulings that clearly wasn't intended. The Nic is DEAD! Better get on with your life. That whole LUP argument is a waste of time for you, so I'd give it up and start looking for ways to improve your position, like some kind of negotiated settlement, if it's not already too late. Legally speaking, a LUP is pretty much anything that furthers the goals or ideals of the union, and since DOH, whether we agree with it or not, was one of USAPA's founding principles (as presented by the west legal team themselves), is all the LUP USAPA needs. Don't count on Judges Wake or Silver to save you from yourselves. Who do you think the AMR guys are going to want in the top spots, Youngsters that will stagnate the entire list for decades, or the group with more longevity which will be more than half gone in 5 years and just about all gone in 10? USAPA has one list alright, and it isn't the Nic!

You flatter yourself....the AMR guys are going to want the AMR guys at the top, and that is where they will be. You and any other east pilots who are going to be gone in the next 5 to 10 years have done nothing but given yourself a pay cut to ensure that LCC pilots are at a big disadvantage.

Usapa has no list....LCC has the NIC...let's see if a merger happens what list gets used.

Legally speaking, an LUP is anything that furthers the goals of the union, provided those goals are actually legal and within it's DFR....unfortunately, your scab union fails to recognize that legal and DFR part.

 

[Bill Brasky]

My guess is that some form of LOS is what a merged airline will use. Some minor fences for a few years. I'll also bet it's negotiated this time and not arbitrated. The real losers will be the furloughed west guys. The law suits will be against the AOL guys that told them not to take a recall east.

 

[Phoenix]

Perhaps you should read Silver's ruling again.

Being that there is a federal court ruling telling the company and usapa that there is a LUP needed to protect them from future claims, you can be pretty sure negotiations will go nowhere over seniority. So, indeed you are once again wrong and a LUP is needed to "negotiate". Since usapa has none, and since the company will not be willing to test the unquestionably ripe waters of what constitutes a LUP, and put it's neck on the line for a scab union, you can also bet the NIC will remain the only system seniority list at LCC, and the only list to use in the event of a merger.

Also, you should be schooled on what the 9th ruled in Addington. The requirement for a ratified contract only applies to the narrow situation of determining whether usapa has breached it's DFR IF it changes an already acknowledged seniority list. Usapa stll has the burden of a DFR for any union activity, let's say, failure of per suing West grievances, or discriminating against the West by stealing growth at LCC to advance the east, or maybe for violating the rights of members and kicking them out and baring them from open union meetings.

You are rolling the dice on what others will do in relation to your position, yet you have no control over the ones deciding your future, accept to threaten lawsuits and cast accusations like "scab" and "collusion". Rather than doing everything you can to alienate everyone who has any say in what will happen to you folks, you should figure out how to be a constructive influence or participant in the change that is coming. If nothing else, you could just spend your day surfing Walmart and Best buy dreaming off all the toys you will get when you collect damages from your never ending lawsuits, 25 or 30 years from now.

 

[Phoenix]

Where did I give my opinion of the CLT recall?

I don't care what you people do.

My comment was to your underwhelmed comment. The C&BL says 25% is all anyone needs to recall a rep. If you don't like that part of the constitution change it but that is all that is required.

I am so impressed that you are waiting to hear what I have to say. Did not realize that I was that important to you? Because I sure don't care what you have to say.

 

[Metroyet]

My guess is that some form of LOS is what a merged airline will use. Some minor fences for a few years. I'll also bet it's negotiated this time and not arbitrated. The real losers will be the furloughed west guys. The law suits will be against the AOL guys that told them not to take a recall east.

OK. Let us know when you get Parker and the company legal team to hand over something other than the nic.

 

[nic4us]

My guess is that some form of LOS is what a merged airline will use. Some minor fences for a few years. I'll also bet it's negotiated this time and not arbitrated. The real losers will be the furloughed west guys. The law suits will be against the AOL guys that told them not to take a recall east.

My guess is you would be totally wrong about LOS. Opens up a Pandora's box of reordering already existing lists...both the Nic and the APA's list. Of course if usapa would be willing to align LCC pilot's LOS with the TWA pilots on the APA list, I think the APA might be willing to go along with that, because they will say look here, we have a 87 TWA hire at the bottom 75% and you have a 87 hire West pilot at the top 25%, so basically all you LCC pilots go to the bottom.

AOL has nothing to fear about lawsuits from furloughed West guys, because AOL never told anybody not to take recall. That is another lie you east scabs keep spitting out there like the lie end-of-alpa threw out about AOL telling pilots not to join usapa, even the furloughed guys who did not get supplements to health insurance.

 

[nic4us]

You are rolling the dice on what others will do in relation to your position, yet you have no control over the ones deciding your future, accept to threaten lawsuits and cast accusations like "scab" and "collusion". Rather than doing everything you can to alienate everyone who has any say in what will happen to you folks, you should figure out how to be a constructive influence or participant in the change that is coming. If nothing else, you could just spend your day surfing Walmart and Best buy dreaming off all the toys you will get when you collect damages from your never ending lawsuits, 25 or 30 years from now.

We have influenced what is coming, more so than the pretend union.

See the big difference between the West pilot class and usapa is that after a merger, there will still be a West pilot class.

 

[nic4us]

OK. Let us know when you get Parker and the company legal team to hand over something other than the nic.

Parker and the company legal team have nothing else to hand over.

Well that is not quite true, they do have the separate ops list that are very lacking in the third list requirement of the TA.

Reminder...company claimed in federal court the NIC is the status quo at LCC.

 

[cleardirect]

You westies are dreamers. YOU keep reading stuff into the rulings that clearly wasn't intended. The Nic is DEAD! Better get on with your life. That whole LUP argument is a waste of time for you, so I'd give it up and start looking for ways to improve your position, like some kind of negotiated settlement, if it's not already too late. Legally speaking, a LUP is pretty much anything that furthers the goals or ideals of the union, and since DOH, whether we agree with it or not, was one of USAPA's founding principles (as presented by the west legal team themselves), is all the LUP USAPA needs. Don't count on Judges Wake or Silver to save you from yourselves. Who do you think the AMR guys are going to want in the top spots, Youngsters that will stagnate the entire list for decades, or the group with more longevity which will be more than half gone in 5 years and just about all gone in 10? USAPA has one list alright, and it isn't the Nic!

You think so. You think that DOH is a LUP?

Did usapa fail to mention that they want DOH as the seniority list to Wake the ninth or Silver?

All these courts know that usapa wants DOH. Yet they ordered that usapa come up with a LUP if you want to use something other than Nicolau. If the court thought that DOH was a LUP she they would not have had to tell usapa go find an LUP.

There is no negotiating. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

If you think Nicolau is dead and DOH is it. Do it. Why worry about what the west wants?

But for a list that you say is dead it sure is at the forefront. The company is still talking about it. The arbitrator at the next seniority integration is going to talk about it.

Very soon you are going to live under it.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

You westies are dreamers. YOU keep reading stuff into the rulings that clearly wasn't intended. The Nic is DEAD! Better get on with your life. That whole LUP argument is a waste of time for you, so I'd give it up and start looking for ways to improve your position, like some kind of negotiated settlement, if it's not already too late. Legally speaking, a LUP is pretty much anything that furthers the goals or ideals of the union, and since DOH, whether we agree with it or not, was one of USAPA's founding principles (as presented by the west legal team themselves), is all the LUP USAPA needs. Don't count on Judges Wake or Silver to save you from yourselves. Who do you think the AMR guys are going to want in the top spots, Youngsters that will stagnate the entire list for decades, or the group with more longevity which will be more than half gone in 5 years and just about all gone in 10? USAPA has one list alright, and it isn't the Nic!

Perhaps. But the system will have to ferret that out, if indeed true. I just can't accept the heavy handed method the east chose. This will have to run it's course.

The Nic is a peripheral issue to me. The true issue is that the east thinks it can unilaterally take the results of a fair process from me and insert it's own stacked deck process.

 

[cleardirect]

My guess is that some form of LOS is what a merged airline will use. Some minor fences for a few years. I'll also bet it's negotiated this time and not arbitrated. The real losers will be the furloughed west guys. The law suits will be against the AOL guys that told them not to take a recall east.

The NEXT merger may be LOS. It may be relative. It may be ratios. It may be status. Equipment fence for a few years

But the one thing we do know is it will be combined using the Nicolau list and the APA list.

The "furloughed" guys on the west will be just fine. They will be put in their proper place senior to all the east furloughs and new hires.

The law suit more likely will be very angry and disgruntled east pilots suing Bradford for leading you down the path. Wasting 6 years and getting you nothing.

 

[Bill Brasky]

The NEXT merger may be LOS. It may be relative. It may be ratios. It may be status. Equipment fence for a few years

But the one thing we do know is it will be combined using the Nicolau list and the APA list.

The "furloughed" guys on the west will be just fine. They will be put in their proper place senior to all the east furloughs and new hires.

The law suit more likely will be very angry and disgruntled east pilots suing Bradford for leading you down the path. Wasting 6 years and getting you nothing.

You make me laugh.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Unions are so short sighted, and it's pilot members are even worse.

Pilots here in the USA take a tactical view and management takes a strategic/global view.

Seniority is labor's Achilles heal.

Crandall: "We have pilots in Paris, we have pilots in Marseilles.

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/american-u-s-airways-merger-doable-crandall-says-T~TDX_ApS1WczfVNFmQxtA.html?cmpid=yhoo

 

[Phoenix]

We have influenced what is coming, ..

Indeed, that's your problem.

You all love to point out that Nic told the East to get with the program, and regardless of the outcome Nic was justified in doing what he did to the East. You can always hope USAPA and APA will be more kind. APA is too smart to allow huge divisions to split their union. Figure out the obvious.