Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[traderjake]

USAPA has one list alright, and it isn't the Nic!

The seniority list exists in the contract.

What contract contains a seniority list that isn't the NIC?

If you want a different seniority list you have to negotiate it and get it ratifed.

 

[Phoenix]

Unions are so short sighted, and it's pilot members are even worse.

Pilots here in the USA take a tactical view and management takes a strategic/global view.

Seniority is labor's Achilles heal.

Crandall: "We have pilots in Paris, we have pilots in Marseilles.

http://www.bloomberg...html?cmpid=yhoo

Crandall says a merger is doable but the biggest concern he mentions is the pilot integration. "Without that you can't" do a merger. You have to "have pilot cooperation"...

 

[Phoenix]

The seniority list exists in the contract.

What contract contains a seniority list that isn't the NIC?

If you want a different seniority list you have to negotiate it and get it ratifed.

You mean the West contract, and the East contract?

 

[end_of_alpa]

The seniority list exists in the contract.

What contract contains a seniority list that isn't the NIC?

If you want a different seniority list you have to negotiate it and get it ratifed.

You mean like the transition agreement was negotiated and ratified?

"But being “bound” by the Transition Agreement has very little meaning in the context of the present case. It is undisputed that the Transition Agreement can be modified at any time “by written agreement of [USAPA] and the [US Airways].”

In short, the transition agreement is really a one way road....the company is bound to travel at that point forward, but it is USAPA's right to negotiate within the same boundaries the company restricts it to....no bump/flush, no cost to company, etc.

You read too much into the TA.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Crandall says a merger is doable but the biggest concern he mentions is the pilot integration. "Without that you can't" do a merger. You have to "have pilot cooperation"...

That will be such a critically important point coming up that I see the seniority issue MUST be settled sans McCaskill/Bond before the merger would be approved inside BK by the UCC. Too much risk.

 

[EastUS1]

The NEXT merger may be LOS.....

But the one thing we do know is it will be combined using the Nicolau list and the APA list.

Seriously? What sad excuse for a "mind" could even put those two, very clearly mutally exclusive notions, together in the same post?

cleardirect: "But the one thing we do know..." I believe you're mistaking the meaning of the word "know". The word you're looking for there is Hope, which is all you've got left.

 

[Phoenix]

That will be such a critically important point coming up that I see the seniority issue MUST be settled sans McCaskill/Bond before the merger would be approved inside BK by the UCC. Too much risk.

I would agree, "pilot SLI cooperation" is the message Crandall meant to convey (along with the message that Govt has done too much to harm the industry.. ie. "Hey Govt, if the airlines want to merge, let them"), and that is probably why he agreed to be on Bloomberg now. I would also bet APA and USAPA think the same thing and will benefit from the message loud and clear. Besides that, APA doesn't want their union torn apart by SLI. The obvious solution isn't too hard to figure out.

 

[EastUS1]

Very soon you are going to live under it.

Sigh!...Yes, yes, yes. We all know that we won't even get 200 cards as well, that "It's OVER!" and we should all "Get used to it!" and that "Ho Ho Ho! Saint Nic is coming to town!", just like he was back this very same time in 2007, and that the dismissed Wake circus trumps any and all other legal proceedings past, present or future and forever, that all's a slam dunk and that your "righteousness" must needs prevail!!! 🙂 Yawn....Let me know how the standard fantasies ever work out for you. 😉

cleardirect: "The "furloughed" guys on the west will be just fine. They will be put in their proper place senior to all the east furloughs and new hires." Ah!..so it's just fine to place furloughed pilots ahead of those that "bring a job"? I'd long thought such heresy to be utterly anathematic to what laughably passes for west "logic"...? The nic insanity, and all west "thought" held that anyone furloughed had no "proper place" save at the bottom of the list...? My oh my..How times do change. 😉

For anyone needing an additional laugh here, this is worthy of repeating: "The "furloughed" guys on the west will be just fine. They will be put in their proper place senior to all the east furloughs......" Whew!...It lately seems even being furloughed out west doesn't at all diminish how truly "special" and entitled these fine people are. 🙂

 

[Metroyet]

The obvious solution isn't too hard to figure out.

Agreed. The only legal solution. One that will survive lawsuits. It's obvious.

 

[traderjake]

"But being “bound” by the Transition Agreement has very little meaning in the context of the present case. It is undisputed that the Transition Agreement can be modified at any time “by written agreement of [USAPA] and the [US Airways].”

In short, the transition agreement is really a one way road....the company is bound to travel at that point forward, but it is USAPA's right to negotiate within the same boundaries the company restricts it to....no bump/flush, no cost to company, etc.

So do you admit the the Nicolau Award is the seniority list until it's modified by written agreement by USAirways?

 

[Phoenix]

Agreed.

Very well then. I can get back to my ground school work.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

How about this scenario. It’s no prediction, or meant to inflame, it’s just a thought. I have no idea one way or another the liklihood of this, but here goes.

Lets say the UCC wants the seniority issue between east and west resolved, therefore removing a bit of uncertainty. Perhaps they’ll also delve into the seniority process between AMR and LCC also, but for the sake of my little thought, I’ll leave that part out for now.

Anyhow, the UCC says we don’t have time for you folks to try to amend your TA, we need to move on. Hummel and his minions say, ok, we will use the Nicolau and go forward with everything in our TA, as is. Not saying it’s likely, but work with me and assume that it is done.
Ok, the east pilots don’t like that. Now the DFR shoe is on your foot. So the east pilots sue usapa. Well ok, but now would the ‘wide range of reasonableness’ that the east likes to tout come into play? After all, would not holding to an agreed upon process of the TA in order to not hold up an 8 billion dollar deal, which would secure a brighter future for all members, be considered within that wide range of reasonableness?

Possible? Could Hummel do something like that, and inform the BPR afterwords, and deal with it then, as Cleary did with that status quo suit in New York? Could Hummel do that? Would he?

The popular east contention here is that the west pilots will not be holding up such a large deal, but is it possible that it's the other way around?

 

[Phoenix]

...
You read too much into the TA.

The ancient document that had no foresight to address realities these so many years hence, accept of course the provision that it can be amended or superseded entirely as needed by negotiations. Wow, good thing it isn't in Doug's way... and Silver confirmed so, just days ago.

 

[Phoenix]

How about this scenario. It’s no prediction, or meant to inflame, it’s just a thought. I have no idea one way or another the liklihood of this, but here goes.

Lets say the UCC wants the seniority issue between east and west resolved, therefore removing a bit of uncertainty. Perhaps they’ll also delve into the seniority process between AMR and LCC also, but for the sake of my little thought, I’ll leave that part out for now.

Anyhow, the UCC says we don’t have time for you folks to try to amend your TA, we need to move on. Hummel and his minions say, ok, we will use the Nicolau and go forward with everything in our TA, as is. Not saying it’s likely, but work with me and assume that it is done.
Ok, the east pilots don’t like that. Now the DFR shoe is on your foot. So the east pilots sue usapa. Well ok, but now would the ‘wide range of reasonableness’ that the east likes to tout come into play? After all, would not holding to an agreed upon process of the TA in order to not hold up an 8 billion dollar deal, which would secure a brighter future for all members, be considered within that wide range of reasonableness?

Possible? Could Hummel do something like that, and inform the BPR afterwords, and deal with it then, as Cleary did with that status quo suit in New York? Could Hummel do that? Would he?

The popular east contention here is that the west pilots will not be holding up such a large deal, but is it possible that it's the other way around?

Sure, you can look at all kinds of solutions within a wide range of reasonableness that will in all likelihood result in little lawsuits that fizzle out after enriching a few law offices, but will never result in any court interceeding and doing much of anything, expecially nothing that will get in the way of an 8B$ meger.

Crandall talked about the necessity of pilot SLI cooperation on Bloomberg today for a reason. Its really not too hard to figure out how APA and USAPA can come to a cooperative agreement that would satisfy the UCC desire to have SLI behind them and at the same time preserve APA's desire to have a union without massive divsions that allow Parker to do what he has done here.

 

[Beancounter]

That will be such a critically important point coming up that I see the seniority issue MUST be settled sans McCaskill/Bond before the merger would be approved inside BK by the UCC. Too much risk.

Of course, we wouldn't want to bring in McCaskill/ Bond to assure a fair integration. There's no way you can staple the west if that happens. You guys crack me up. How low can you go, how low can you go?

Bean