Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

How low can you go, how low can you go?

Never so low as to have complete contempt for any other person's years worked and experience, much less EVER wish to see new hires placed ahead of people with 15/16 or more years already in service.....and yourself?

 

[Ames]

One must feel some proper sympathy. Seriously; how would you like to go through years of life (or perhaps even all) perpetually drowning in all that anger?

Seriously. No anger. It's all just entertainment for me.

I originally entered this forum to learn something. Then I saw a need to speak out with the truth about our situation. Since then I realized east pilots really don't know anything and don't want to. Most of you are beaten down emotional wrecks who enjoy dragging everyone else down with them and pounding your emotional drum.

For a while I enjoyed tweaking you for entertainment but am now bored with that. Besides, I no longer want to step down in the gutter with you.

I believe things are happening fast and this merger will take a life of its own. I also believe that justice will prevail and the Nic list will survive. When that happens I won't gloat as so many of you have been doing over your latest bid.

I believe the reasonable east pilots will accept the Nic, the new merger and move on. The rest of you will melt down and I will enjoy watching that happen.

If I am wrong about this then I will retire from here and will invite all my former AWA friends to enjoy some deep sea fishing in SC.

 

[EastUS1]

Ames, Today, 04:08 PM
Eastholes are cute when they gloat. Remember, karma is a beotch. This isn't over yet but will be soon if we merge with American. Count on it.

Seriously. No anger. It's all just entertainment for me.

The rest of you will melt down and I will enjoy watching that happen.

Yep...no anger at all 😉 I see that you missed the long-ago suggested appointment with a good psychiatrist...? 🙂

 

[Beancounter]

Never so low as to have complete contempt for any other person's years worked and experience, much less EVER wish to see new hires placed ahead of people with 15/16 or more years already in service.....and yourself?

We all know that you think placing the west below the east is fair. What's wrong with an outside, neutral party deciding? What you think is fair, just happens to be a tremendous windfall for yourself. Hmmmmmmmm.

Bean

 

[high*flyer]

Aimless, I'm sure there will be lots of entertainment in the near future. You do know the NIC is dead. By being inflexible in a fluid environment the west has missed the opportunity to impact their future, which will be decided by APA and USAPA, the two unions representing the pilot groups involved. Hope the fish are biting.

 

[EastUS1]

We all know that you think placing the west below the east is fair. What's wrong with an outside, neutral party deciding? What you think is fair, just happens to be a tremendous windfall for yourself. Hmmmmmmmm.

Bean

Not so Bean. I'm of the mind that any/all, regardless of east-west/whatever, should, as individuals, be placed based on their "time served" if you will. I also support the idea of not permitting east to bid into PHX and bump anyone downward. The nic's no threat to me, nor could I receive any "tremendous windfall" from either embracing or thwarting it....the often suggested selling out for 30 pieces of silver or whatever amount, wouldn't make up for the implosion in principles and personal beliefs that would be needed to do so. I mean no "holier than thou" BS in any way, shape or form there. We just differ in our opinions as to what's morally and/or generally correct to do here.

 

[Beancounter]

Not so Bean. I'm of the mind that any/all, regardless of east-west/whatever, should, as individuals, be placed based on their "time served" if you will. I also support the idea of not permitting east to bid into PHX and bump anyone downward. The nic's no threat to me, nor could I receive any "tremendous windfall" from either embracing or thwarting it....the often suggested selling out for 30 pieces of silver or whatever amount, wouldn't make up for the implosion in principles and personal beliefs that would be needed to do so. I mean no "holier than thou" BS in any way, shape or form there. We just differ in our opinions as to what's morally and/or generally correct to do here.

I can understand time served, not DOH. As far as being locked in PHX which we currently are, I have a different view. In my opinion, my airline couldn't afford to internaly generate the growth it needed to survive so it aquired your failing airline, in the long run saving both airlines. Your airline was our growth plan and it's now OUR/YOUR airline. So forgive me if I balk at being locked out of our growth.

Bean

 

[end_of_alpa]

I can understand time served, not DOH. As far as being locked in PHX which we currently are, I have a different view. In my opinion, my airline couldn't afford to internaly generate the growth it needed to survive so it aquired your failing airline, in the long run saving both airlines. Your airline was our growth plan and it's now OUR/YOUR airline. So forgive me if I balk at being locked out of our growth.

Bean

I know that this line of thought Is ingrained in the West pilot psyche for some reason but this has NO basis in fact. It had no cash to acquire our airline. What kind of double talk is "couldn't afford to internally generate the growth it needed to survive (no cash) so it acquired your failing airline (with WHAT? Dougie dollars?).

US Airways had no cash to acquire AWA and vice versa. That cash came from external equity investors and that is supported in the 10K.

Locked out of YOUR growth plan? Really, if YOUR thinking of this as YOUR growth plan it's no wonder we haven't gotten a contract yet.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I would agree, "pilot SLI cooperation" is the message Crandall meant to convey (along with the message that Govt has done too much to harm the industry.. ie. "Hey Govt, if the airlines want to merge, let them"), and that is probably why he agreed to be on Bloomberg now. I would also bet APA and USAPA think the same thing and will benefit from the message loud and clear. Besides that, APA doesn't want their union torn apart by SLI. The obvious solution isn't too hard to figure out.

If that is the conclusion they come to this next several weeks then 90 percent of the merger is complete!

 

[end_of_alpa]

So do you admit the the Nicolau Award is the seniority list until it's modified by written agreement by USAirways?

As a proposal, to be part of a JCBA, yes. But again, we don't have a JCBA first, and secondly EVERY SECTION of a CBA is negotiated and can be renegotiated at any time.

No CBA is FOREVER.

 

[end_of_alpa]

How about this scenario. It’s no prediction, or meant to inflame, it’s just a thought. I have no idea one way or another the liklihood of this, but here goes.

Lets say the UCC wants the seniority issue between east and west resolved, therefore removing a bit of uncertainty. Perhaps they’ll also delve into the seniority process between AMR and LCC also, but for the sake of my little thought, I’ll leave that part out for now.

Anyhow, the UCC says we don’t have time for you folks to try to amend your TA, we need to move on. Hummel and his minions say, ok, we will use the Nicolau and go forward with everything in our TA, as is. Not saying it’s likely, but work with me and assume that it is done.
Ok, the east pilots don’t like that. Now the DFR shoe is on your foot. So the east pilots sue usapa. Well ok, but now would the ‘wide range of reasonableness’ that the east likes to tout come into play? After all, would not holding to an agreed upon process of the TA in order to not hold up an 8 billion dollar deal, which would secure a brighter future for all members, be considered within that wide range of reasonableness?

Possible? Could Hummel do something like that, and inform the BPR afterwords, and deal with it then, as Cleary did with that status quo suit in New York? Could Hummel do that? Would he?

The popular east contention here is that the west pilots will not be holding up such a large deal, but is it possible that it's the other way around?

Gary has already stated that the NIC is dead, both at the CLT meeting and in writing. For the union and especially the legal change their mind would cause severe litigation that would make what we just went through a walk in the park.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Seriously. No anger. It's all just entertainment for me.

I originally entered this forum to learn something. Then I saw a need to speak out with the truth about our situation. Since then I realized east pilots really don't know anything and don't want to. Most of you are beaten down emotional wrecks who enjoy dragging everyone else down with them and pounding your emotional drum.

For a while I enjoyed tweaking you for entertainment but am now bored with that. Besides, I no longer want to step down in the gutter with you.

I believe things are happening fast and this merger will take a life of its own. I also believe that justice will prevail and the Nic list will survive. When that happens I won't gloat as so many of you have been doing over your latest bid.

I believe the reasonable east pilots will accept the Nic, the new merger and move on. The rest of you will melt down and I will enjoy watching that happen.

If I am wrong about this then I will retire from here and will invite all my former AWA friends to enjoy some deep sea fishing in SC.

But you still think we're scabs....entertainment value, huh.

Right.

Enjoy your retirement.

 

[Claxon]

Seriously. No anger. It's all just entertainment for me.


I believe the reasonable east pilots will accept the Nic, the new merger and move on. The rest of you will melt down and I will enjoy watching that happen.

If I am wrong about this then I will retire from here and will invite all my former AWA friends to enjoy some deep sea fishing in SC.

bookmarked

 

[end_of_alpa]

Seriously. No anger. It's all just entertainment for me.

I originally entered this forum to learn something. Then I saw a need to speak out with the truth about our situation. Since then I realized east pilots really don't know anything and don't want to. Most of you are beaten down emotional wrecks who enjoy dragging everyone else down with them and pounding your emotional drum.

For a while I enjoyed tweaking you for entertainment but am now bored with that. Besides, I no longer want to step down in the gutter with you.

I believe things are happening fast and this merger will take a life of its own. I also believe that justice will prevail and the Nic list will survive. When that happens I won't gloat as so many of you have been doing over your latest bid.

I believe the reasonable east pilots will accept the Nic, the new merger and move on. The rest of you will melt down and I will enjoy watching that happen.

If I am wrong about this then I will retire from here and will invite all my former AWA friends to enjoy some deep sea fishing in SC.

I joined initially to try to educate our group on the nuances of labor law. But no matter what I said here the terms and language used against me by you and several of the posters were downright racist. Some still are. I've never gotten to that level, although at times I've certainly expressed thoughts that could have been maybe been thought out a little more.

A forum is generally not a place to have the "wild west" and in any case it would be appropriate to "self police", first, and maybe those who are not directly affect refrain from taking a side. Unfortunately that ship has sailed and we are where we are.

I can say that this go around with a SLI we will be able to work it out ourselves and most certainly without McCaskill/Bond because even with that with four or five different parties there is too much risk with the uncertainty of another proposed SLI (arbitration) where the enforceability is like leading the horses to water....the UCC and equity investors (if any) will insist on it before a merger is announced.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Phoenix said earlier today: "I would agree, "pilot SLI cooperation" is the message Crandall meant to convey (along with the message that Govt has done too much to harm the industry.. ie. "Hey Govt, if the airlines want to merge, let them"), and that is probably why he agreed to be on Bloomberg now. I would also bet APA and USAPA think the same thing and will benefit from the message loud and clear. Besides that, APA doesn't want their union torn apart by SLI. The obvious solution isn't too hard to figure out. "

Post of the day Sir! BINGO. Those taking he 35,000 ft. view will see this clearly.

I will go out on a limb here, so bookmark me. I do not think a USAPA/APA integration will go to the arbitration phase of M/B SLI. We here at USAPA know better, and the APA guys and gals have way too much to lose in a decision that might wander from reason on a bad day. All they want is what they have, I would guess the APA pilots could care less what we have to offer here.

Nope, attrition at the combined airline rules, over 2700 pilots in the next 6 years at age 65 alone. Look for LOS or DOH with at least 5 year conditions and restrictions.

Greeter